so what kind of things can can HDMI do
that's important well I think that the
main thing that HDMI can't do is very
quickly turn the TV on because hdmi cec
is so thinly supported across the years
and differently supported across TVs and
so if you want to make a TV that's
smarter and able to like show you the
weather and then disappear do stuff a
little bit more quickly because you're
gonna have other things plugged into
other HDMI channels and because CEC is
like fundamentally unreliable it needs
to be more tightly integrated in the TV
to make that sort of integrate with your
smart home work so if you want to turn a
TV into like an echo show or a Google
home that's really difficult to do if
you just have a stick plugged into it
because you know you're just gonna it's
gonna feel crappy and slow as I write my
TV I've got a Nvidia shield hooked up to
it and then a Nintendo switch and like
it is not uncommon for it to suddenly
decide that I'm playing a game on the
switch in the middle of the movie and
just a flip over that and be like hey
you're probably playing a game now and
I'm like no I'm not it's not time for
that or vice versa and like the shield
just power on because it gets the signal
from the TV it's like a weird two-way
Highway that does get very well well and
some of these devices are too clever by
half so I set up a fire stick in HDMI
for something and then realized that
HDMI four didn't fully support HDR okay
fine so that I unplug it from each HDMI
for put and replace it in my Roku and
HDMI to and everything was great it was
4k and then as soon as I asked Alexa
something it switched it to HDMI 4
because when it did ran through its
initial setup it identified itself as
being on HDMI 4 which is the I'd like go
through the whole thing again I keep
thinking you just I mean I want the
dumbest possible TV I'm going to have
you know a separate receiver and there's
going to be one cable going for the
receiver to the TV the receiver does all
the magic but that seems to be like the
TV manufacturers also free to being
disintermediated that they're doing
everything they can to prevent that yeah
I mean they can't I can't sell those TVs
at a profit right yeah without all the
tracking software on them so if they
sell a dumb TV you
be ironically more expensive than
there's gotta be an opportunity for a
service to dumb oaf ITV's like that show
up with like a whole bunch like powerful
radios and magnets to just like fry the
the particular part of the TV you want
to fry like a DWR tea that just sudo
bricks tvs and just turns them into the
dumbest possible device maybe maybe like
you get the TV and you pull the mac
dress and then you just immediately
programmed or rather to block that MAC
address yeah or you could you could you
could sell like RF blocking like sheets
you know well I think we should get
started
welcome to this week's repair radio I'm
your host Kyle and I am the teardown
engineer Taylor and we also have
remotely we've got Kevin out in Buffalo
New York hello and your special guests
either bone from the verge greetings
mobile accomplishers so super excited to
be talking this has just been such a
jam-packed week in the tech world I am
blown away by III I have never seen the
product launch go this way I think this
seems like the boats roller coaster of a
product launch I mean neither can you
recall anything
I mean what's been like a catastrophic
demo failure like the Galaxy fold has
been man I am trying to think what has
actually been yanked in the like review
stage of a thing and I am coming up
super blank we've had products like
announced and pulled so I'm a palm guy
so I never the palm folio or they
thought they were gonna create a little
laptop companion for your trio phone and
then they finally realized that they
shouldn't do that and so they pulled
that product but you know a device like
just just straight up being broken for
reviewers and subsequently delayed is
like not a thing we ever see what it's
because we talk about repairability a
lot and and the the durability and we
get people thinking about and you know
what happens if inevitably something
breaks but that doesn't normally enter
enter the discussion of mainstream
product reviews your
viewing a thing it always works is
reviewing the capabilities you're not
generally able to talk about the
durability of something because you've
got it for such a short window yeah and
you know it's it's very early and often
with these things like you know we're
there we they're always something that
we get from the company we borrow and
then we have to send back so like just
from an ethical perspective we want to
break it and sometimes like from a legal
perspective we you know in order to get
through you sign a thing saying I'm not
gonna intentionally you know break this
thing I'm not going to chuck it against
a wall or do a drop test or you know
whatever my plan is from now on though
to insert a clause into all of those
contracts for review units to give
myself permission to put every single
device in a bag of Doritos and shake it
Rito's onto the keyboard and see if it's
still right so for those listeners who
have not been following the entire drama
theater can you give us kind of like the
previous version of what happened when
you got there do you Samsung sure so the
unit was fine and I was you know going
through my review everything was very
normal and I had been planning on saying
things like although the screen seems
like it could be delicate and picks up
dings the handed mechanism itself feels
very sturdy and I don't
and then so I receive the unit Monday I
believe it was Tuesday night I noticed
this weird bulge on the bottom of the
screen right in the crease I was like
well this seems bad I felt it a little
bit it felt like it was something hard
like a piece of sand underneath there
call up Samsung say this seems bad
they're like oh we're gonna come and
replace it tomorrow okay cool
get into the office early take some
photos get some video of it and then
just like wait for Samsung to comment
wait for Samsung to come in and replace
the unit and while I was waiting
thinking I was the only one with a
problem I see some tweets from so I see
Steve Kovac from CNBC Mark Garmin from
Bloomberg marques Brownlee
I'm forgetting somebody else here I'll
just start tweeting like my screens
broken too so I'm like oh okay fine this
is a problem hit publish and then over
the course of the next couple
days it becomes clear that there's two
big problems problem number one there's
this thing that looks like a screen
protector that isn't that you shouldn't
pull off because it destroys it and then
problem number two the much more
mysterious like bulge gate bulge problem
which I experienced reporter for a
German magazine experienced and then
finally Michael Fisher mr. Mobile on
YouTube just posted I think a day or two
ago that he was experiencing as well
Swiss publication by the way Swift I'm
sorry okay I did that too so I'm curious
as your as you were using it did you
notice that there was a gap kind of
along the hinge underneath the screen
where things could have gotten them yeah
I mean I definitely saw it you you look
at the thing and you can just see the
gap now there's I think there's
basically two types of gaps that are
worth us talking about the one on the
front is the one that I noticed like
there's there's that you know plastic
rail that holds the screen down and then
the rail doesn't go across the hinge so
you can kind of see a gap there that's
the one I was worried about the one that
did occur to me and we're gonna tear
down I can't pull up the tear down I fix
it and you'll see and I've got on the on
the video here I was putting a guitar
pick right in underneath that that full
Bert where it would be very easy for
material together underneath it yeah
and I mean I assumed that's where mine
had gotten in or it seemed likely
although it was weird because the the
bulbs that I got was I don't know half
an inch or so north of where that gap
was so it would have had to like
silently worked its way in the other gap
is of course the gap on the back on the
spine which I thought was like that's
fine but in your teardown you guys
really educated me like actually no if
you look at that gap that is massive
especially in the context of a
smartphone you can also jam a guitar
pick into that we just so that's our
metric for everything on this like how
many guitar picks can you fit into your
phone and the answer should be zero you
should be able to fit zero guitar picks
into the innards of your phone however
with this device yeah not the case
what's the tailor you did the teardown
itself and I've got it up here and we're
going through give me kind of your
initial impressions of this thing well
initially we were actually as we started
doing the chair now and we were a little
impressed because it started coming
apart more easily than some of the older
Samsung phones like the s10 set we just
took apart right the screen just came
you know yeah and the outside screen
came really yeah normally it takes an
aggressive amount of heat and this time
we just kind of took a little spritz
from the heat gun and then it came right
off so that was impressive but then as
we started getting further and further
into the bite into the device we just
were overwhelmed at how many like
fragile pieces there were and you can
tell that Samsung did a lot of work to
make certain parts of this phone robust
but I just think that they
underestimated the fragility of the
screen to be honest well although I mean
the entire hinge design everything like
it seems like everything about the
mechanical structure of the phone is
designed to protect the other exactly
yeah well I mean designed to protect the
OLED I think might be a little bit of a
stretch but designed to last I think is
maybe a fair thing to say like if you
look at the hinge it is actually
incredibly robust looking and I think my
favorite part about the hinge is there
are three main parts to the edge and the
center part of the hinge is where the
like the gear mechanism is right this is
fascinating
yeah so the but the upper and lower
parts of the hinge are floating so if
you watch the video on our teardown you
can see that in the video the top part
of the like the upper hinge kind of
floats and that allows for horizontal
like or not horizontal but torsion flex
so if the device is to occur any
twisting then it will be able to the hem
you'll be able to take that so that just
makes me think they were really
designing to make this thing durable and
the screen is just the weak part you
know
almost Greek mythically the by folding
the phone using their wonderful hinge
you are in some ways what some have
speculated is that you are essentially
then pushing the particles that got in
through the hinge up into the OLED
screen yeah like we're all modes flaw
and its greatest success that the hinge
is so cool but it also is so reliable at
pushing debris into the OLED screen
which then fails in a way that most OLED
screens do is according to our engineers
which is like catastrophic Lee it
doesn't just die a little bit it doesn't
kill a pixel it doesn't just leave an
area of your screen you know looking
worse it generally the whole thing goes
down because you know OLED screens are
sensitive to everything to cut it short
yeah but this was the thing that I'd I
have such a hard time actually just
writing about it and describing the
hinge because it is so like I want to
use a word robust like if there's any
twist when you open it it accounts for
that and make sure both sides are always
you know opening evenly relative to each
other but what I don't understand is if
you look at the inside of the hinge it
seems like like they should have just
covered over where some of those gears
appear so they wouldn't be able to push
grit into the screen like why did why
don't they just put like I don't know a
piece of film over that or something
why isn't there a piece of film or the
gap on the front of the phone it's like
fundamentally like they did such a good
job like accounting for like mechanical
failure they never never thought they
never thought to deal with you know the
failure of things that exist in the
world like sand and grit and potentially
clay even we might have been molding
clay on our device although I still
don't think so you you think this is
just classic like it was designed in a
lab in a clean room and they just forgot
about the real world
honestly that's my inclination like the
there are just too many indicators that
they did put a lot of thought into it
for me to say like they're just dumb I
think that they were just not planning
for the right use cases or planning in a
lab or just maybe rush the very end of
it yeah maybe I mean the addition of the
screen protector feels like maybe that
was the last decision
yeah and like we say we call it screen
protector what we mean is the top layer
that most of oh not most some of the
reviewers peeled off well I did ask
though cuz it looks like you want to
peel it off and it it collects you know
like when you whenever you've got like a
screen protector or sort of collects
dust yeah the screen protector lines up
with that plastic rail that holds a
screen down and it just it just collects
dust like nobody's business and so you
are like just like you feel like you
want to get rid of that thing or clean
it off all the time just completely
befuddled because it would have been
really easy for it to be a little bit
bigger and going underneath the bezel
and that's just part of the screen I
mean the bezels are relatively easy that
was another really interesting thing was
the bezels came off incredibly easy like
almost as easy um the the top layer of
the screen does not come off easily per
se it's pretty strongly adhered but I
would say the bezels maybe came off
easier than that top layer of the screen
did so so why did they why is the screen
protector you know or you know the top
layer yeah not extend all the way to the
edge and the only explanation come up
with is it was a late minute late
addition yeah a last-minute addition I
mean another theory that I had was maybe
Samsung knew that the screen would be I
mean it's plastic instead of glass so
it's gonna pick up dings and Nick's as
the Verge's review showed so maybe they
intended to be able to replace that top
layer at some point you know like you
spend $2,000 on your phone and you don't
want to replace the whole display Oh
Samsung can just replace the top layer
for 50 bucks whatever but I mean what do
you think the actual mechanics of
replacing that top layer would be like
you they would have to have like a
really special squeegee with the stuff
to dissolve the adhesive to get that
thing off though is it like that screen
is so delicate underneath that
protective layer that I would think any
any kind of force on it is a huge risk
yes what well I think what gives me hope
about that idea is I can't remember who
it was but somebody who peeled off
protector in their review or with their
reviewing unit
their screen survived for like a day or
two and so maybe it was something else
that killed it and yeah no I I still do
think that what kills the display when
you take off the protector is the
pressure that you're applying to the
display to wedge your finger in between
the reactor and the screen but just the
fact that that one person was able to do
it without breaking the screen
immediately makes me think that Samsung
must have a way to do it you know with
heat or some kind of chemical solution
yeah but but but it's hard to it's hard
to envision with and the training oh I
was gonna say a baby this we were to ask
but like all these things that point at
kind of a rush delivery or you know not
quite thought-out life time for this
device like why is it so important that
this fold got out the door and to
reviewers like what why would a company
prioritize getting a device like this
into the hands of reviewers into the
public you know versus the more
normalized approach of thinking it
through and testing it more I mean I
have some ideas some theories number one
and I think this might have been the
biggest pressure is Kwame has one of
these folding phones in the works and
that that folds the other way and
there's many fascinating things about
that but the amount of like corporate
pressure on Samsung coming from hua ways
direction is as big or greater than
whatever pressure they feel from Apple
because Samsung has done not very well
in China and Huawei is making really
strong pushes across Europe and and you
know other like AIPAC and everywhere
else and so they're eating into
Samsung's bottom line so getting this
thing out the door
let's Samsung plaintiff like an
innovation flag this is we look look at
this thing we made this thing we're
selling this thing and we're we're
amazing the and that's fine I guess that
they needed to get it out first the
thing that I don't understand is the
positioning of it if they had called
this thing a developer beta or you know
extremely limited edition you know super
fancy you know Ferrari edition you know
go
partner with literally picked pick any
luxury brand you can think of and say
this is this is the Hermes and we'll
have a mass-market one later but this
one is only for certain people and they
could have kept the price exactly the
same or even cranked it up a little bit
and I think that a lot of people would
have a really different attitude towards
a you know very special fancy limited
edition thing that's fragile versus
something that was meant to just be a
mass-market thing I totally agree and I
think everybody Samsung all the way
through who would agree the
retrospective that's how it should have
been framed it's it's just such a
fascinating thing I'm curious cuz you
know this the fragility of this thing
all of a sudden brings the discussion
around repairability a bit to the
forefront because even if if they do
perfect these issues these initial
issues clearly it's going to be
dramatically less durable than past
phones are what what do you think the
role is as a gadget reviewer of thinking
about the the lifecycle of these things
as you're making recommendations well I
think for this device in particular this
form factor you already got a weird
thick awkward bulky phone right like
when you fold this thing half its doofy
it's got like the gap in the middle of
the hinge it's it's real it's like it's
a big thing and it feels weird and so if
you're not trying to fight on the level
of I'm making the thinnest sleekest
sexiest you know fully enclosed you know
slab of a smart phone if you're not
having that fight like they do with the
Galaxy S ten then if you make it a
little bit more repairable and that you
know you end up having to make a
trade-off that there's like a little bit
of extra added bulk or you know whatever
that trade-off is that people
traditionally cite as a reason that they
don't make something more repairable I
think that kind of goes away because
you've already got like a brand new form
factor that's awkward to begin with so
you know make it a little bit thicker
make that rail you know a little bit you
know it's already easy to take off but
like make that rail come off easily and
then make the screen come off of that
from that end really easily so you don't
have to dig through the back of the
phone to do anything like that seems
like a totally reasonable thing to do
it's it's fascinating to see as we as we
shift toward I mean it seems clear OLED
is the technology that is going to win
the future and yet it is dramatically
more fragile than LEDs were or are yeah
and as I'm learning this week Samsung
itself is the major supplier of all LEDs
around the world and so this company
does not have a ton of incentive to
provide low-cost replacement of LEDs to
anybody that their own customers
included yeah one thing I'm not sure if
you're aware but the the repair Marquis
is having a real hard time with Oh LEDs
because the parts just aren't out there
there are aftermarket factories making
these things like there are with LEDs
and they're much they're much harder to
refurbish because as you know as we said
previously they're generally dead when
they're dead they're it's harder to get
usable parts out of them than there were
for LCD displays for instance issue of
them being really tricky to manufacture
and just to new or is it like is there
some problem or is it fundamental to the
idea of OLED that there's just there's
never gonna be a lot of factories that
make it because it cost too much to make
well I've got about a thousand words
it's Whaley - Kyle for this but this is
it's it's a combination of new
technology patents expensive to set up
but all of that was true for LEDs for a
long time - and eventually the
aftermarket catches up so there's you
know you have your traditional you know
technology adoption curve and as we're
at the beginning of it it is it is
monopolized really it's only Samsung and
LG you can do it it may be harder for
third parties and refurbishers to get
secondhand parts out of oled displays
again because of not only their repair
ability but like as has been an issue
burnin which affects any device that's
you know any OLED device that's been
around for a while it's harder to rescue
those without some kind of burnin
showing and then also just the Asian
market dynamics which are the way it's
looking right now is that companies in
Japan and China are ramping up their
OLED production facilities and so
Samsung may or may not be the you know
kind of king of the market for who knows
how much longer so hopefully you know
we'll see more OLED options for people
repairing and stuff but right now
they're they're pretty much the market
mover which is I mean it's interesting
if you go into a repair shop and you
want to get your s9 fixed compared to
and I thought they pretty much the
prices for
arts are so expensive that the repair
shops just aren't doing it yeah I phone
eight is about like seventy bucks if you
walk in right now to a unnamed chain
repair shop and say like I need this
versus that same shop is two hundred and
seventy dollars for an s10 or an iPhone
Apple charges about 280 290 for an
iPhone X I think which has that which
also has a Samsung OLED display and new
iPhone 10 I'm sorry what we're here yeah
what we're hearing is that Samsung just
like they're really enjoying the fat
margins on the parts and and so they're
they're just consistently keeping
propping the prices up higher which
which I think leads us into some of the
right to repair discussions like if they
are the monopoly on the parts are they
to what extent are they gouge people and
and is that enforceable potentially well
I mean I I guess I could imagine a world
where it is but it's also that's a
difficult world to imagine because we're
talking about cooperating on that
enforcement across you know multiple
countries right and I mean I have no
idea how I would even begin to fight
that fight with Samsung well they lost
on the D Ram fight back in the day oh
that's fair um dieter can ask you a
question and perhaps shift this to let's
say something nice territory so the I
would say that you know the kicker or
the nut graph of your actual review the
verge has many many pieces about the
galaxy fold as much they have to but
your actual review that the canonical
review says right before jumps into the
details I've never used a device with
this many problems that I have liked
this much yep please expound when
Samsung actually released the very first
note everyone just laughed and laughed
and laughed at it and then it became a
smash hit success because people just
wanted a bigger screen and I caught
myself in that category of initial
doubters having a little miniature
tablet like a 7-inch tablet with you at
all times is great having that larger
screen gives you
affordances and abilities and just an
overall feel of using a thing that is
superior to a phone in like 15 different
ways and just if you just consider the
thing as a little Android tablet if they
had just made this thing with that and
it didn't fold in half and they you know
maybe make it with a thinner or whatever
I would have seriously considered buying
it I mean as long as it kept the price
like under $500 because it's really
convenient and it's you know it the it
you look at the iPad Mini and it's that
people adore that device they deeply
love it and of course it's more capable
than Android on a small device anyway
but there's a reason that people enjoy
that screen size and that sort of
experience is because it really does fit
in a particular corner of your life that
a phone doesn't or a larger tablet
doesn't the other reason I really liked
it and this is a little bit harder for
me to pin down is it because it's so
awkward it has like the little phone
experience which you don't want to use
and then it has the large tablet
experience which you want to use but you
don't want to use everywhere and that
sort of middle zone where you're in line
at the grocery store or on the subway or
even like walking down the street when
you know you shouldn't be using your
phone where it's really easy to just
pull your phone out and do something
this actually discourages that because
the little screen is not enjoyable and
the big screen is a little bit too big
and awkward to use in those situations
and so you know I used this thing a ton
I used it in a way differently than I
use a phone I you know on my phone it's
you know me pulling out and checking
Twitter all the time this thing I like
use it in meetings instead of my laptop
so it I felt better about this as a
gadget in my life than I expected to and
in some ways I like it better than
having a phone and maybe that's one of
the great problems with tablets even an
iPad Mini you like it but if you want to
take take it with you you kind of need a
bag for it
right so the fact that this fits into
your pocket a tablet that fits in your
pocket maybe that's the I mean that's
the dream one of the things that I wish
that they had done and I we could
actually talk about this a little bit
because you confirm something for me and
your teardown is if you look at it it it
folds out like a book right and when
it's folded it's very
tall and skinny and that means the
screen on the front is very tall and
skinny well in my head what I would like
them to do is have it fold out the other
way so when it folds it's a little bit
wider and then you know it unfolds
basically the same size so basically
switch it from portrait to landscape in
the way that it unfolds but my hunch is
they probably tried that and they
probably didn't think it worked because
they probably couldn't get the screen
controller in the right place because
the the screen controller and this thing
is on the right hand side and so it has
to you know refresh the screen across
you know the the short side of the seven
inches if it had to refresh the screen
across the long side of the seven inches
I might have a bigger problem that's
interesting I think also from a from a
rugged durability perspective I really
do think durability was in their thought
process from the beginning with it I
think they just didn't think about this
failure mode and the over design hinge
and the floating metal back panel of the
screen is mounted on and and the way
that the the screen like when you open
up the geared system make sure that
opens synchronously in both directions
all that is designed to mitigate stress
on the screen and I think they were
probably able to get a I mean right
there just with it with the hinge area
being longer they really provide more
support on the oh and it was levered out
more right I make sense with wider wings
but why do you all think that they
didn't try harder to seal this thing up
against debris and uh so it doesn't have
an IP rating explicitly but they're just
a bunch of like gaps right next to
moving parts which to me seems like a
recipe for disaster and I think it
turned out to be I kind of just feel
like it was a losing battle and they
admitted that right from the get-go I am
just thinking about how I would add AI P
resistance to this device it feels like
a nightmare and so I can only imagine
like being at the drawing board trying
to figure out how to build the hinge and
what to back the screen with and then
also adding to that conversation how to
make it ingress resistant like it just
seems like it would have been really
difficult and I'm not
saying that it's like that that is a
fair thing for them to omit but I can
just imagine it being so daunting that
they decided to not even try now just
imagine like a ziplock bag type piece of
plastic that's just lining the entire
inside of the phone and every time you
fold it you just hear this like paper
you know bag of chips crinkling sound
like well at least it's waterproof yeah
I tend to want to give these designers a
fair amount of credit yeah I mean they
spend so many years work I mean there's
so many people with so much intent and
after it for years working on this that
I don't think you can simply say oh they
didn't think about they have to have
considered it and deprioritized it for
some reason
yeah so the I guess I'm interviewing you
now which is hilarious um my last
question is they have said they're gonna
they're still gonna release it it's just
delay it's not a cancellation there was
a quote that they gave that to me
indicated that they might like actually
tweak the design of this thing in some
way I have to imagine there's tens or
you know I don't know maybe a hundred
thousand of these things that came off a
factory line that they're gonna want to
try and retrofit in some way but maybe
not if they go back to the drawing board
that's like a year right at least so
what could they possibly do to this
thing to better protect the screen what
do you think Taylor what would you do
and I mean if you think about this like
the amount of money involved let's say
let's say it was fifty thousand of these
and you know we're talking about on the
order of yeah I mean depending what
their their margins are right seventy to
a hundred million dollars sitting there
in the warehouse waiting to get out
there right can they can they add more
I'm you out and getting the word wrong
or can they just like bolster the
substrate underneath the OLED panel just
like create a super like thick durable
like none clay shall ruin this display
like like you know can they can they
build the north wall inside this thing
between no LED in the back so it's like
go ahead dirt do your worst
I think that that would be too much work
like I think that that would require
every design yeah a redesign that would
take a year or more you know okay you
can't just like pull the panels off
modify them and sync them back in yeah I
mean I'm not necessarily an expert in
that field but I don't think you could
okay but I made some kind of baffling or
gasketing around the edge yeah I think I
think what we will definitely see is a
change to maybe that top layer of the
display and what I'm hoping to see is so
right now the bezel of the main screen
that I mentioned comes off fairly easily
that comes off in two pieces and I think
what they could do is take those off
become bad I mean it's super easy and I
could do that very easily you know take
those off and then try and make that
into one piece and have it connected by
some I don't know rubber gasket that
would stretchy material
yeah that would fold but also cover that
gap on the display side yeah I don't I
don't think that would save everything
but I do think it would be enough for
them to come back and say look we tried
to do something it's still fragile but
by please
dieter if you get one back in on June
mid-june whenever they actually deliver
it you know what will you be looking for
when you get it back well I hope
hopefully I'll get permission for the
bag of Doritos test sure I mean I mean
here's the thing look I I'm not gonna
set out to break the thing right I
didn't set out to break the first one so
it's unless I go out and buy my own for
me to like go at it with like real
durability testing is difficult and we
might decide we want to spend the money
to do that but if nothing else I'll be
looking for just from my untrained eye
do I think they did enough to protect
ingress on this thing and hopefully also
I'll spend quite a bit of time with it
to just see if if anything happens I
think that's reasonable I think we will
be watching The Verge carefully and and
I think everybody should be should be
probably following you on Twitter the
secret the ongoing drama with with
Samsung is there anything you want to
promote I know you got
the other run but is there anything
you're working on you wanna let
everybody know about I think the main
thing is keep an eye on the verge for an
announcement about the verge cast
related to Google i/o just a turn in
town teaser
we're excited about Google i/o we've got
something going on for that - that's
cool stay tuned
fantastic well I know you've got
something to get to so thank you so much
for joining us really do dancin okay
what a fascinating device and what a
fascinating journey to go I mean it was
you know this is like 60 miles an hour
to a screeching halt
I have never seen a product launch
killed by the product reviewers right
this is like a video game coming out and
they see that - the initial reviewers
and then they're like oh we made a
bad game we need to go back we're just
gonna delay the launch retool things and
we'll launch the game in six months well
they need a bad game but the reviewers
like can't make it past the first level
yeah even even Bethesda sticks to their
games and says like listen this is fall
of 76 guys you enjoy West Virginia like
we designed it um cuz you guys as the
new guy here a question about our own
teardown you know so I guess when I read
it and I was left wondering because the
score of the fold which we haven't
mentioned it is like a 2 out of 10 or
maybe we mentioned that I don't know you
know we're we're here saying this thing
is going to be a nightmare to repair
yourself or pair Tech's anybody but I'm
not sure where we landed on like the the
hinge because on the one hand we have
spent a lot of time extolling the
virtues of this amazing hinge and it
does seem super cool and like a feat of
engineering that like how does a lot of
bikes I've cared about torn apart like
internal gear hubs are not this
complicated but the same time it sounded
like our our teardown and our
institutional voices saying like moving
parts equals potential problems like
even such a well-designed hinge is a
potential problem for any human being
who's not a robot who's gonna fold this
thing but laptop hinges work so well
yeah right but we know our ways some of
them do
so yes some of them do so what I mean
what do you think this is possible if we
if we say you know Samsung goes away for
a year or two and then they redesign
this do you think we can they have
another crack at this and this is all
solvable to be honest I'm glad you
brought up the score Kevin
we are constantly walking a tightrope of
talking about straight-up repairability
as I'm like how easy is it to replace
the display and how likely is it that
you will need to replace the display and
those are arguably two different things
but we try and bring both of them into
or a pair of balloons or as often as
possible because they're both kind of
relevant so this sorry go ahead
I was gonna say if you have to
constantly replace something that is
also slightly annoying to replace like
exactly right you're also more likely to
damage it by all the times you have to
yeah yeah sorry good so this particular
device is I wouldn't say significantly
but is noticeably easier to replace
certain things on then for example the
s10 which just barely came out and the
s10 got a three so this is a lower score
device in the s10 and there there are
just so many ways that you can come out
this conversation but at the end of the
day we're just trying to like convey to
the reader and the industry what we
think about the devices construction I
guess it's a very fragile device very
easy to break and it's gonna be really
hard to face mm-hmm that's the bottom
line of the score and and so as a result
and I mean as as usual and has been the
case for sampling devices for a long
time we don't recommend people buy them
yeah our I would say on the repair
really score if it scores lower than
five don't anticipate that it's going to
be straightforward to fix expect it's
going to be expensive and and buyer
beware yeah and as we said we we have no
idea what the prices are gonna be yet on
a replacement screen for this thing the
thing that seems most likely to break
and it's probably not going to be cheap
at all yeah
that you know those s10 displays on
already $200 and this is twice the size
and also much more complex right a
replacement screen that's less than $600
for something like this would be
surprising to see him and maybe more and
then and then can you even install it
without breaking the new screen in the
process it will be challenging yeah I
mean I understand the compelling in the
idea that we would want a tablet in our
pocket but we're certainly a long way
away from the Star Wars flexi that you
just folded up and put in your pop yeah
durable yeah that the I mean it's hard
to make a gorgeous screen that's
flexible and and there's so much
circuitry in there that circuitry is
very fragile and you make it so thin to
make it flexible and here we are well
that was your galaxy fold discussion
this is I mean we can talk about this
thing for a long time because it's just
well the more interesting stories in
tech but some of the other things that
are happening there's a whole lot of
right to repair news happening and I
want to loop everybody in and and kevin
has been diving in we have the Federal
Trade Commission has announced an
inquiry into obstacles to repair they're
really curious to see what's going on
right your investigation of that going
good we've been writing a lot of stuff
on the iFixit blog about everything that
basically we took everything that the
FTC is looking to get from consumers
repair shops anybody and they asked a
number of pointed questions about you
know how does this affect this and how
you know how are people affected and we
are trying our best to kind of actually
address a lot of those points at the
blog so we've been writing about things
like the biggest obstacles repair things
that companies do to block either
independent people or individuals for
independent shops or individuals from
repairing and as alluded to I am working
on another post about Samsung in
particular and the pricing of say their
repair screens so we're trying to answer
as many questions as we can and we
actually will be submitting those to the
FTC you know along with what we hope is
some data and other stories from other
people but yeah you know the along with
the FTC hearing which the deadline is
Tuesday
believe April 22nd Tuesday yes I've know
you're open to the public they want they
want your input so if you can share your
experience with repair obstacle they
definitely want to hear it they have a
series of questions that they post it on
their website you can google for nixing
the fix and it will pull up the FTC okay
and then and very google bull term and
then they they have a reasonably
convenient forum so unlike the copyright
office where they made the forum as
complicated as possible fill out this is
a pretty reasonable and then they say
you know what's this published but but
really i mean you can just you can just
paste in and you know paste in your your
know tell them your story i think i
think they want to hear your repair
stories yeah
and i've tried to keep myself from going
down too many rabbit holes about various
kinds of repairs and markets and things
like that but in the meantime the FTC
you know the deadline is Tuesday for
that hearing that's in July I think June
and in the meantime though in various
states around the country there are
things afoot bills moving and or being
discussed and Kyle is just back from
Salem Oregon I believe yeah we had a
hearing in Salem last week which was
that last week I was there on Monday
it's a little fast moving week it's a
fast moving week yes so this is cool
this is Oregon is a little bit
interesting they they declined to move
the bill forward this year so we knew
going into the hearing that we didn't
have a chance at a vote on on rate
repair but it was informational hearing
where the legislators wanted to ask
about it and we had a fantastic
coalition that people show up we we had
folks from the or asperger which is the
Public Interest Research Group where
they were working on on you know
protecting consumer interests Oregon has
the consistence Utility Board or Oregon
cub which is a group are you know
fighting on behalf of citizens and
making sure people have access to the
Internet and rural areas they were very
active and then and then we also had
just as coalition up of local nonprofits
and repair businesses show up so if
you've never heard a free geek they're
absolutely amazing we should have them
on as a guests on the show some time
free geek is an open source collective
in Portland where they they recycle
e-waste but then they reuse and repairs
as they can them they make technology
available to disadvantaged folks and one
of the things I love about free geek is
if you want to learn about technology
you can go and volunteer they'll train
you how to build PCs and then if you
volunteer for 20 hours
the last PC that you build you get to
take home for free and change volunteer
that's way cool
it's so cool so they are bridging the
digital divide more effectively than I
would say just by than any other
organization that I know yeah and having
humans at the end of the chain instead
of a robot we're big fans of right it
turns out humans can you know the add
intelligence I mean they do a lot of you
know you've got some older Windows PC
that when this isn't running fast on
anymore throw a bun too on it it'll run
fast or Chrome or some version of Chrome
OS or anything yeah absolutely and they
teach they teach classes so if you're in
the Oregon Portland area highly
recommend you swing and buy free geek
they have a thirst store where you can
go and buy electronic and you will not
get a better deal on on older Mac's or
accessories I mean less than their oh I
bought some extra AC adapters for the
office
they're valuable they are they're worth
their weight and then also things that
are shaking in Sacramento or already did
it sir yeah so California is next up
says we're working through we got 21
states that I've introduced right to
prepare this year a California is next
up so we have a hearing in Sacramento on
April 30th at 1:30 p.m. and the consumer
and Privacy Protection Committee so if
you're in the Sacramento area please
swing by you're welcome to join us
I'll be there along with our California
Coalition which includes I think
Consumer Reports will be there which
will be supercool Electronic Frontier
Foundation is sending someone and I
would I mean this is a opportunity so if
you're listening and you're in in
California please go to California that
prepared other org and write your
legislators right now we have a
possibility of getting a floor vote on
right to repair but Apple and the
appliance manufacturers never be less
fighting it's really hard so this is the
time if there was ever a time to call
your rep in California this is the time
before before the hearing on Tuesday
yeah and then um I believe things are
you know
midway through the country just you know
gaining so many miles for you this this
month Minnesota right Minnesota also is
is looking we
two committees in Minnesota this year
which is the farthest we've ever gotten
and it looks like we're going to have a
floor vote in in the Capitol Minnesota
this month maybe next week which will be
super exciting so same thing goes for
Minnesota Minnesota dot repair the other
org if you know anyone in Minnesota you
got any Minnesotan family members now's
the time to speak up and um you know
we'll have this this you know as the
wave of right trip air moves across the
country there will be other other states
but we have a really good shot in both
California and those other right now
it's also a great time to as I've
learned from following it it's also a
great time to learn more about state
legislation and how it happens you can
learn a lot from this right it's really
not that complicated they want to hear
from you they have you have you called
your reputation lead there's a staffer
they pick up they say hey whether you
call them about you say you know I'm
interested in supporting the right to
repair bill they may ask you what what
the bill numbers are and that then they
just have a sheet and they just keep
tallies and you know you're welcome to
email them but the phone call is
probably worth 10 emails and and I mean
that this is their job but the
politicians are there to listen to and
respond to their constituents and
clearly this is something that impacts
people's lives so you have an
opportunity to engage in democracy is
what if you're as corrupt as you think
what if you're in one of the states that
hasn't been mentioned recently like a
New York New York yes so we will there
you know it's interesting at the
legislative calendar is different for
different states so New York absolutely
has a range of our boat it's going to
happen it's just going to be later this
year same thing to Massachusetts in the
number of other states but that doesn't
mean you can't reach out to your rep
right right now and talk to them so we
have set up all 50 states you can go
your State DOT repaired other orgs and
New York da prepared other or
Massachusetts not prepared Lord and we
have a handy form you don't even have to
know who your state reps are who your
senator or represents so just because
you don't have an inkling that something
is like currently about to hit the floor
you can you can make waves and contact
your representatives in your own state
yeah absolutely and I mean a few calls
make a difference if we could get you
take New York if we could get ten phone
calls to every state senator in New York
a lot of them oh so it's it's totally
doable gotcha on so that that's the the
Rach opinions it's been a lot of kind of
groundwork to get to this point but but
they have kind of really compelling
shots in one week at Oregon and Matt
Minnesota and California is is really
phenomenal and everybody that's that's
been involved behind the scenes has just
been working like mad to prepare for
these things so if we can get some help
from the community and get some kind of
last-minute groundswell support that
will amplify our message when we're in
the Capitol testifying all right what
else what's coming up next on the tear
down pocket do every case I mean it's
like this is a little bit of a lull
after the galaxy yeah the gospel was so
huge
honestly the next thing that I'm most
excited about is huawei's folding phone
the make X yeah I have so many questions
about that I was gonna say for those who
were listening and maybe don't have a
chance to look it up it literally folds
the opposite mentality of the galaxy
fold instead of folding in to a closed
device that then has metal on the
outside it folds the way that you
shouldn't fold a book back around and
then there's screens on the outside on
both sides and so you just imagine how
fragile is that screen going to be like
if you have it in your pocket with keys
we'll kill it yeah so I can see why
you're excited about getting that that
that monster did you have some like
hardshell like like can't I glasses case
that slides into yeah then you would
never want to put in your pocket like
yes we've all been waiting for that
nineteen pound phone with a clear
acrylic display case that we carry
around with us exciting variables that I
mean I'm hoping that it won't just be a
carbon copy of Samsung's phone just
reversed you know but the having the
display fold the opposite way like you
mentioned is much more makes it more
vulnerable to things in your pocket or I
mean how do you even set a phone like
that down without scratching the screen
in some way
I'm hoping that they can use that
opposite full mechanic to back the
screen up in a better way like because
there's a bigger radius on the curve of
the screen they have more room to back
it with something solid instead of
makable Samsung had to leave like a
whole gap between their metal panels you
know I feel like Huawei right now is
like everybody else during the note 9
debacle where they're like oh we
better ingress protect us after after
the Noah and battery thing every major
manufacturer went back and retooled
their battery safety Oh is a to make
sure this never happens again there's
the note 7 yeah no sorry note 7 yes yes
I'm reminded every time I got an
airplane it was the note 7 and so yeah
Samsung is sort of bearing the brunt of
forward progress for everybody else and
that's a bit of a result of their
philosophy right there yeah yeah they
want to be first and I think that's
pretty cool about Samsung and I hope
that they take that like with like they
take all of this salt that everybody's
giving them a trainer thought like with
the cream salt yeah you imagine I mean
while always gotta be you know just
really getting ready
yeah who's making out like a bandit with
all this Apple who's just a sideline
laughing at everybody waiting for
everyone else to figure it out yes Apple
who has to pay samsung 110 dollars for
every iPhone 10 screen but imagine what
was everybody talking about before the
galaxy fold came out we were all talking
about Mac Oh mm-hmm
right and all of a sudden nobody's
talking about macbook keyboards anymore
everybody talking with the galaxy I
didn't your belief your belief is that
human beings as a species can only hold
one company in contempt at a time one
that is one memory slot for like who do
I currently dislike gotcha okay that's a
reasonable theory entertaining
entertaining world we all say may you
live in interesting times oh here we are
with gadgets fail before you get them
yeah did you see that Apple is they
changed their keyboard repair policy so
they they are now they pushed out a new
policy so that all keyboard repairs
in the store I can storm out to their
repair facility when they said one two
three hours I think or something like
that yes you're swapping the entire
upper case of the computers yeah I mean
it's the repair doesn't fundamentally
take that long you just end up with I
mean you're swapping out there's at the
computer when you gotta take them the
mainboard out so I would say I mean how
long do you think for it for a skilled
technician who's done it before to do
that as well I think you can do it in an
hour like Apple has everything set up so
neatly you know I'm sure that they have
a place for every single part and for
their repair technicians so I'm sure
they can do it quickly but that's an
hour complicated repair that you have to
take the time to do right while the
Apple servers are already completely
backlog yes everything else and I mean
that's why they were sending them a that
depose before is because Apple just
doesn't have enough staff to do all
these repairs so yes they're doing it
and if you can get a but then you get
you they're putting the exact same
keyboard back on so if you had the
product there's no reason when new
keyboards are going to be any better
you'll fail again in six months yeah
yeah if you're going to insist on
getting one of these these new MacBooks
you kind of have to buy Apple Care
mm-hmm as much as I would like you to
buy parts from I fix it I care it's
gonna be the better deal and as long no
Apple seems to be losing money on on all
these machines that get it repaired at
least once or twice because because of
the the design rate the keyboard has
integrated in the upper case and the
trackpad and the battery is attached so
it's not just swapping out the keyboard
it's swapping out a very expensive
substantial component yeah sure and
they're not going back on these switches
for these keys they just they can't no
they looks like they can't go backwards
they can't put headphone jacks back in
they can't you know they can't change
their mind about how keyboards work I
they clearly need to I think I think
they have to know but the lead time I
mean let's say that they decided January
1st that they're gonna finally redesign
the keyboard it's gonna take a year and
a half to two years for that to hit the
market so this is it's it's it's very I
mean I I think we tend to like you know
we're moving at the pace of the internet
and things are so fast about hardware
design cycles take years
and if they had not I mean now the
argument is they've had years to fix the
MacBook keyboard I think they just had
their their head stuck in the sand so
they're gonna stick with the same design
well so the other news I mean this is
like we're moving back through the last
few days the major news is it was Earth
Day on the 22nd it was enough to Earth
Day Apple issued their annual
environmental report which had actually
had some things that we're interesting
in there yes um I'm I can't believe that
was only Thursday
it's that was but yeah
so um in the run-up to your Earth Day I
guess it was Thursday I think that they
put out their announcement or maybe a
little earlier than that last week Apple
announced essentially like the the
headline news that they would like you
to pay attention to is that they've
expanded the recycling program is how
they put it that means that you know
things they said were that you can now
drop off your iPhone at Best Buy and
select places in the Netherlands and
that will seemingly send your iPhone if
it you know toward the recycling robot
Daisy which they seem to have now have
two of them at least one in the
Netherlands one here maybe a third is on
the way just to hit all the headlines
real quick before you circle back they
also announced which we're big
proponents of and you can read the post
about it on our blog we're that they're
going to make steps toward recycling all
the cobalt that's in their lithium-ion
batteries back into the supply chain so
essentially creating what they say is a
closed loop not audited but be nice to
see that actually but basically in a
closed loop of cobalt reducing the need
to mine more cobalt out of the earth and
you can read our posts you can look out
the Washington Post's really astounding
reporting on how cobalt is mined and
right Cobo most of the world's cobalt
comes from the Democratic Republic of
Congo and a lot of it is mined and
really kind of horrific informal
conditions where people are literally
digging holes in the ground and then I
mean with it without safety procedures
without equipment that Washington Post
expose it can't investigate a piece it's
just devastating to see the human cost
that our gadgets are inflicting yeah and
this and you know companies can say
you know we've audit our supply chain
and we're sure that none of this is
coming from kids or from artisanal mines
with how they phrase those you know
holes in the ground and it's very hard
to track at all because of the Byzantine
ways that the supply gets out through
these holding companies and
international brokers and stuff like
that so anything as Kyle I think was
quoted saying anything to reduce the
amount of cobalt being mined is a good
move so you know that's good to hear
yeah and be clear Apple by no means is
saying that all iPhones are all products
that they're using have recycled cobalt
what they're saying is that the very
small fraction of their products that
they get back the batteries they get out
of those they are sending to a smelter
who is in recovering the cobalt and they
are buying that cobalt from them so
there's very very tiny fraction of the
cobalt going into these devices is is a
closed loop which is you know not
substantially meaningful right now but
over time if they could expand it maybe
it will be yes if they can get more of
their iPhones well know kind of just
before I forget it the other thing they
announced is that they're opening a
recycling laboratory essentially and
every every recycling person we talk to
you for this story quoted or not said
like yep that's a laboratory it's a
small nine thousand square feet is a
huge home for us but it's a very small
recycling facility where they're going
to work on things involving e-waste and
things like that mate they say that
they'll share any findings from that lab
which will have their engineers present
back to the larger recycling committee
which is good anything they can do to
help figure out ways to extract more
useable things out of electronics is
good but you know this really feels like
a response to our criticism of dayz
where I call Daisy Daisy the death bot
where Daisy is this very complicated
expensive multi-million dollar machine
that is designed just to take one thing
apart which is which is fine in Apple's
sort of you know closed system but it
doesn't help what the world of
electronics recycling everybody that
already has industrial processes that
are operating at scale whether they're
recycling thousands of different kinds
of products every day the day Z
approaches isn't isn't viable so it
seems like this is Apple saying okay
maybe you were right we're going to see
if we can start a lab and start some
experimentation see if we can come up
with some some processes that would
improve how recycling is actually done
and and share some of those best
this is what the community yes but at
the same time they are still all in on
Daisy
they are buying more of them they are
there they say they expanded it they
said that net can now hold it can now
handle 20 models of phones which they
weren't 15 I'm sorry yeah they didn't
specify which models that means so does
that the impression that's the the 32
gig and the 64 gig yeah oh yeah yeah 15
doesn't go as far when you realize the
number of us ku's they might phone the
black 15 yeah rose gold what a monster
still cannot cannot do an iMac or an
iPhone 4 or an iPad right thing which is
your larger point which is like we can't
just build factory sized robots for
every device that every manufacturer
makes this is why we have shredders
other general purpose machines yeah it's
it's historically not been viable to get
all products back to single play so you
can understand why manufacturer would
say this they like hey we have this
amazing
assembly line process that works really
well for making these things and we make
a 300 million phones a year that way it
works really well let's recycle them the
same way it's just the the real world is
messy those 300 million phones get
distributed around the world and getting
them all back into a single location
where you have a fancy expensive machine
to undo the manufacturing right well
it's possible to make that machine it's
not possible to get all those phones
back and as also stated in the piece and
an argued is that you know in terms of
recycling you're so unlikely to just
quote unquote recycle your iPhone now
it's like it's great that they'll take
it back at the Apple Store and
eventually recycle it or whatnot but
like the chances that even with your
iPhone 5 you can't just get 20 40 50
bucks for it and you know handed down
the chain you know why would you recycle
something that's worth some money
I mean Apple offers a pretty token
amount I believe in the Apple Store if
you trade in an old phone you can
usually get more for on the secondary
market which is good like that's a net
good for everybody but yeah so overall
the number of phones at Apple is getting
in to recycle with this robot is not
substantial it can't be given the
numbers that they're posting up but it's
not a bad thing it's it's it's very
complicated
absolutely complicated announcement we
don't want to root for success you want
it to work I mean one of the things that
they
about the theoretical capacitor Daisy
could he process 200 phones an hour but
they didn't talk about how many phones
the Daisy have actually recycled yeah it
sounds like they've collected something
like a million phones that are queued up
and waiting for Daisy and so I think at
the point that Daisy is is running and
as processing those million phones
that's interesting yeah of course I
wonder like okay if Daisy can process an
iPhone 6 and you're going to risk like
why would you recycle an iPhone 6 yeah
at this point you wouldn't like Kevin
was saying you'd be better off selling
it on the secondary market I'm not using
for parts even for parts yeah busted so
a functional iPhone 6 is a hundred bucks
right now on swap I think a non
functional you know water damaged broken
screen will probably still go for 40
bucks
yeah the raw commodity value we did the
math and the cobalt value inside the an
iPhone is about 23 cents the rest of the
commodities might add up to a dollar you
say I'm gonna take this $40 thing I'm
gonna shred it and get $1 value out of
it yeah right yeah so we you know we
wrote about that you can read that at
the blog you can see what a nuanced like
reaction we have to what seems like a
good news announcement but like I mean
it would be the same for any other
company really you know any other
company that came out with a robot that
recycles one type of phone or whatnot
but I mean it's it's good that Apple has
the cash on hand the resources the the
expertise to try some new things and
thinking about it right I mean recycling
doesn't get it doesn't get covered in
the mainstream enough so we're really
excited to see see people talking about
it we're going to we're engineers we're
gonna criticize engineering perspective
but we're really excited that there are
more brains thinking about it yeah
someone who works in in large scale you
know II waste and I T you know
refurbishment said you know actually
like good luck to them like yeah
honestly their lab where they're going
to work on recycling problems like
anything they can tell us about you know
like new processes or any things like
that you know can't be can't be bad but
also like you know nobody should come
out with the idea that like the industry
has just been sitting around waiting for
someone in a black turtleneck to tell
them how to recycle things like they've
it's it's it's obviously a industry
that's been you know has some R&D behind
has some movement going on so right yeah
that's it well we're continuing to break
more stories I mean just this week I
mean between the galaxy fold teardown
and which were you know I think I think
Congrats to the team Taylor and Friends
of the fantastic Joe is just such a
fascinating device and all the way over
to you the the progress that's happening
on Mary to repair and then and then you
know tearing down apples analysis and
analyzing apples new environmental
programs it's just an exciting time to
be in this and this business so thank
you all for listening and sticking
through us with an hour of fast paced
discussion we will be back in two weeks
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thanks for listening bye happy fixing