work of satellites did you see this I
did I didn't read that much did you see
Ilan's tweet about it no it was just
copy and then the emoji for cat
between the days us I see and I guess I
guess a very expensive copycat and hits
a billion dollar copy multi billion yeah
and I guess at some point last year
Elon flew up to evidently SpaceX's
satellite development facilities in
Redmond Washington which seems like
maybe a bad place to do it if you don't
want your staff to get approached by
Amazon and Elon flies up there in a rage
last year and fired seven top managers
and then all those top managers went to
Amazon they hired them and they're
running Amazon's StarLink knockoff hmm
so those you're you're Elon Musk drama
for the day he they they all really want
to get into space it makes me a little
nervous that they want to spend so much
time it's like they know something about
earth we don't know like all the billion
it's literally like the like if you turn
that in a sci-fi writer review like
little on the nose but like the
billionaires really want to get off this
planet I loved reading sci-fi about
billionaires get in space and they're
you know floating palaces and you know
well spiced billionaires are real
billionaires though I mean I've read
those two okay the real billionaires
like Ben Bova was you know back in the
day was kind of he was the editor of I
think Asimov in a long time and while
his sci-fi
shall we get started oh yeah let's do it
okay everyone welcome to repair radio
I'm your host Kyle and I have a new host
with me I am Kevin birdie I kevin joins
us from wirecutter where he has been
writing all kinds of consumer
recommendations telling you which which
things are what goodbye bed by the best
for most people the best for most people
there you go and we're excited today
we're going to have a special guest
representative Jeff Morris from
Washington where we've had the right to
repair bill both this year and last year
and he's gonna tell us give us an update
on the build status and tell us what's
going on there but before we have Jeff
on tell me a little bit about wire cut
the heck is it
sure it's a product guide really we
don't like to say you'd like reviews or
anything like that or you know when
that it's it's a guide to getting the
best thing in a category or looking at
vacuum cleaners phone chargers laptop
stands so that way you can you know
we've done they've done all the research
they've done many hours of testing they
talked to experts stuff like that and
you just bought you know we say this is
the best thing to buy that you know most
people are gonna want this one instead
of giving you a series of charts and
numbers and three star ratings and four
star ratings and weird little statues
with glasses so what I really appreciate
about yr Keller is most tech sights are
on this treadmill of we have to publish
stories all the time and if you're on in
gadget or gizmo though right they're
posting a story every twenty minutes all
day every day and and they take the
they're almost regurgitating press
releases to some extent and I know Brian
lamb who started wire cutter was
editor-in-chief with his mother for a
long time and then you've got burned out
by that treadmill yep absolutely
and also but like I think that and so
yeah he started the wire cutter a while
after that but also I think he was or he
said before they're like the ephemeral
nature of it just like if all you see is
a series opposed to like you know the
the Moto X 3 is awesome the iPhone 7 is
awesome you know the pixel 3 is awesome
and like if that's all you ever get is a
series of like or you know even like
this thing stinks this thing's great
whatever like to someone who's like okay
so like but which one do i buy like
which like I get to like step back and
get the pause and say regardless of the
news last week yeah well yeah and then
journalists are also in interesting to
different kind of games in the ships and
you are like they're like this really
shows that Apple has lost its way but
like to you and me it's like okay well
great that's a good merit made a
narrative but like should I buy it you
know like you know this is a you know
this this MacBook Pro is a clue that
like apples gone off the rails but like
I need to write something for my job
good I should I buy this thing that is
you know a totem of a wayward company or
like a triumph of the you know Google
engineering or rover like do I buy it so
yeah he is a much slower pace of wire
cutter I mean and these are very long
reviews I gotta admit I am a hard time
reading an entire wire cut review okay
fair it's the I mean how many words is a
typical review
when well there are some that go to
12,000 and more and so if you want to
read 12,000 words on the best mid-range
headphones to buy or kids headphones or
you know budget earbuds or whatever this
there is a 10,000 word column for you
with extensive research yes but you can
also just see what we've picked and
believe that all that stuff is down
there you know you like we're never
gonna like fake it there's always like
lots and lots of interviews of research
you know they do you have any idea how
many people are just clicking the thing
rather versus reading very smart people
who work at the wire cutter know that
number it's very I don't metro size it's
not a word yet it's very quantized what
that number is and it affects the way we
design the page and sure that that's
that's generally how I interact with
where it goes I look and see what the
recommendation is to scroll down and
read some of the things that you yeah
and then almost a first pyramid style ap
style where it's like here's the most
important thing and if you want to keep
going right so I I feel like there's a
moment for me usually about two minutes
into reading a column where I see some
tests that they did and like okay that
is over the top wait can't remember was
the most over-the-top test that you were
involved um
I helped out my coworker my former
career Nick guy well no he burned down a
small house to test fireproof safes so I
was I live in the same town or I lived
in st. Ives Nick and he literally built
a fire structure with his firefighter
father and grandfather Wow
because you know all these companies
like First Alert say like yeah this this
fire the safe will survive
water damage and fire damage to 450
degrees things like let's find out so he
literally build a with firefighters call
it just like a burn house which is it
can you know intentially stuff with
mattresses and newspaper how is this
house um it's like a it's like a dog
house or a real house it's like a
backyard shed like the shed you shove
you're serious one more and down or
whatever um and then you just burned him
remembered um myself I think one of the
weirdest ones ever did was cutting
boards because in order to see how they
well they recovered from stains I boiled
like eight pounds of beets this cut the
beers in half and just like rub those
beets on those cutting boards and just
saw and yeah we're good
eggs and bagged onions you know garlic
to see if these feel like garlic after
as many days yeah so that that's one of
the weirder ones fantastic that's
fascinating yeah it was it's a it's a
great it's a great job I enjoyed doing
my work there and I'm really excited to
start here though and you know um I
don't have like a cap line on it but
essentially like I'm interested in the
other side of things too which is like
not buying things right and not picking
out new things to buy and seeing if you
can make things last longer and getting
the most recent stuff you do have right
which is which is why we're we're
talking about right to prepare today I
mean fundamentally that this there's
this idea that the things that we have
we want them to last as long as possible
we've been working on legislation so far
this year we've got legislation in 20
states and we have joining us Jeff
Morris from Washington Jeff you are
muted and there should be a mute button
at the bottom of your screen you can
click on the unmute yourself is he's
working on it but Washington is as
really been a leader in in the right to
repair space and it's been it's been
interesting to see how how it is kind of
moved through legislature we had a
hearing last year in Washington and and
the bill made it out of committee which
was which was really exciting but then
but then it stopped
and so then way the bill introduced
again this year and I will uh once we
get once we get Jeff with audio I will
walk them through a bit what's what's
been your perspective you're coming from
the outside you're joining I fix it now
what's been your perspective watching
the right to repaired movement kind of
take shape um it well obviously your
first week my first week on the job
heard I fix it has been a real crash
course in the history of right to repair
I didn't this week I learned as they say
today I learned that I didn't know that
some aspects of it
over time as ads the obstacles have
kinda broken loose it's Jeff I think we
have your audio now I think we're live
sorry about that
that's tele okay yeah so you're live on
repair radio very excited to have you
here I'm Kyle and and this is Kevin and
you may remember we met very briefly
last year when I was up in Olympia
I do actually thanks for making it out
for that hearing it was a great hearing
absolutely that was fantastic we of
course we were up there you know again
this year tell us a little bit of the
background to how you got into write to
repair yeah it's it's it's actually a
great a story about how the legislature
and state capitols are supposed to work
basically I had a right to repair shop
or write a repair shop owner in
Bellingham Washington who wanted to have
coffee with me and so I met him for a
coffee and he talked to me about some of
the right to repair legislation that was
going on around the United States and
different states back in Iowa I think
and and some other the eastern states
and he was talking about his business
now he was having problems increasingly
getting parts to repairs certain phones
and how much more difficult it was with
the newer versions of phones to actually
repair them without breaking them and
also shared his experience too about
some of the newer products like iPhone
10 which I'm talking to you on right now
that the in-law cases the batteries were
being glued into the case so they
basically had to destroy the case in
order to replace the battery at some
point so we talked a bit about planned
obsolescence in my interest with a bit
of a technology background was that you
know really it's the access to the
secondary market when you know I buy a
new phone and I might give this phone to
my kids or something or or sell it that
you know they would have the ability to
use this since they may not be able to
afford a brand new phone on their own so
it's important access to smart smart
devices is to have a robust secondary
market that you can buy tablets and and
smart phones on and so
that's that was really my interest to as
an economic development interest to make
sure everybody you had some way
potentially to access the the Internet
economy and all the learning that
happens now over those platforms as well
for K through 12 fantastic and and I
mean certainly access to education is
something that has been really near and
dear to our heart we have a lot of
schools using all the repair information
on iFixit to repair the things and they
hear from schools all the time we wish
you had your diagnostic software the way
it is and we don't I don't have the
diagnostic software to share with them
I'm very sorry don't worry but but maybe
maybe this bill would change something
so HB 1 3 4 - is is the bill number in
Washington can you give us kind of a
summary of how things have gone this
year yeah we were gonna be able to move
it out of the house to the Senate this
year and then take up trying to work it
through the state Senate and
unfortunately it didn't make it out of
our Rules Committee on to the floor we
thought there was a good chance for a
floor vote it had a lot of bipartisan
support so it wasn't an artisan bill it
had I think as many Republicans as
Democrats supporting it and
unfortunately you know some being a
technology state here in Washington with
obviously the home to Microsoft and
Amazon to name a couple large presence
by Google and her vales with any type of
cloud operation here in Washington State
they really marshal forces to keep the
bill from moving moving out of our House
Rules Committee they're there we're on
the street was there as a larger deal
with some of the tech companies over
some tax issues and stuff here that they
didn't want to see the right to repair
bill move forward but I think if there
was a floor vote on it it would pass
with with the overwhelming margin it
sure seems like it you know we have
never gotten a floor vote on right to
repair in any state yeah well you know
when you're taking on you and your David
taking on Goliath you know that ends up
being the case because they have well
honed ground games so all the state
capitals where you know if you don't
have folks you know who can go knock on
every legislators door and tell them why
this is important it gets to be kind of
tough to fight against folks
have the resources to do that and you
know I think one of the unfortunate
things too is that there are groups that
say they represent small business and
what I found is is that most of these
repair shops are all small businesses
for the most part is that they weren't
they were not taking up this issue and a
became or - and I think it's just one of
the unfortunate things of politics that
it tends to be the big businesses that
write the checks to fund some of these
quote-unquote business organizations
right well it's not just just write the
checks they have the time to engage most
repair shops I know are working day to
day they don't necessarily have time
even join their local Chamber of
Commerce which I think that they should
but it's relatively rare to see repair
shops that are engaged in kind of the
broader civil discussions yeah you're
absolutely right I work in the clean
tech sector out out set it by night job
as a state legislator and a lot of
start-up clean tech businesses are in
the same type of both where they may
have a new technology for the smart grid
but they don't have lobbyists and state
capitals that when legislation that
comes up that could help move their
products into utilization it's usually
the incumbent technologies that Marshall
force is to keep them out
same with same with this right I've
noticed a trend that I'm curious have
you seen this in Washington where it
seems like there are kind of waves
generational waves of repair businesses
we're in the 90s maybe they were camera
repair stores you can take your camera
digital camera or your film then digital
camera and to get fixed and it doesn't
seem like the the camera stores are
around anymore yeah I mean that's true
you know I mean I mean basically your
your smart phone and your tablet is your
camera now so it's it's you know really
those business the silos have merged
into I think the the repair shops you
see today and I was sinners actually I
in Washington state what I've noticed in
my legislative district is there's two
different types of repair shops there's
the really the independent repair shop
that you know fixes a lot of devices
mainly the cracked screens that you know
that the the water damage type issues
that pop up and then you've got some of
what we call the license or authorized
repair shops that like Apple authorizes
you to fix their phones if you can't
make it
there you know maybe one repair shop
they have that could be up to two or
three miles away yeah yeah I mean and
and that's that's been I think the
broader kind of trend I feel like
there's something about the kind of
folks who run repair businesses where
they tend to be very technically
competent but they are not they tend to
be kind of inwardly focused on on the
tests that they're doing and on their
customers and they don't generally get
involved in the civic discourse and I
have a feeling you look back even before
the camera repair shops there were
television repair shops and and they all
got driven down the business and the 90s
because the TV manufacturers cut off
access to parts so we're talking about
right through here now in the context of
all these new digital diagnostics but I
don't think this is a new problem I
think there there's some kind of
fundamental disconnect between these
local repair businesses and state
legislators yeah I mean I would sure
just to get my experience in the clean
tech sector because I think it's
analogous you know the people that
develop technologies for clean tech are
brilliant scientists but their forte is
developing technology and it's not you
know lettuce airily communicating and
lobbying people and you know doing the
the things that are outside the you know
the the bench in their lab or garage or
wherever they're developing their
product at but it's so important you
know that one repair shop owner in
Bellingham Washington would have never
contacted me we never would have
introduced that bill never would have
been introduced in Washington State and
we were able to move it out of committee
two years in a row now yeah I think
we've got a policy that if were
implemented into law would work you know
I think one of the things about the
policy last year versus this year is
that we're looking for maybe a little
bit less onerous consequence if
manufacturers don't make repairable
products so last year we said you
couldn't sell your products here
Microsoft was going around telling there
are members in the legislature they
weren't going to sell their surface
tablets in Washington any longer if we
pass the bill the way it was and and I
think the direction we're heading in is
that we have a waste recycling program
here in Washington so for everything but
smart phones you manufacture errs who
have electronics so this would be like
the laptops maybe you're looking at
right now and talking to me Tara you
have to prepay a disposal fee to recycle
those once someone brings them to a
electronic recycling center right now
phones are exempt from that and so I
think what we'd like to do is to have
some sort of not onerous but if you make
something that's planned for
obsolescence so you're gonna clutter
that a waste stream right that you're
gonna pay a larger fee up front to make
sure that those products get recycled in
the back end and you know a lot of the
red herrings that the industry bought up
to say this is a horrible idea about
having electronic smart electronic
devices are repairable is that well
somehow you know their intellectual
property or ink is gonna get stolen and
you know sold to China and or Russia or
somewhere and can have you know a little
clones developed right now with our
e-waste recycling program I could take
the laptops you're looking at right now
and drop them off and get them recycled
and there's been no issues so far with
that program about that you know the
circuitry how things are wired in those
tablets about those devices being you
know having the electronic diagram sold
off to you know a foreign country where
they would be remanufactured in some way
there's actually no evidence of that but
so I think that's the pathway really to
pursue right to repair legislation is to
if you're going to be cluttering
electronic waste streams with devices
that I have planned obsolescence yeah
you know you need to prepay a
significant amount of money to get those
devices you know recycled in a
responsible way well I've been in a lot
of these recyclers we had some of the
recyclers testifying Olympia if you have
a cell phone like this the the raw
material value that you're gonna get out
of this is something like 25 cents worth
of copper that you're gonna get prior
cycle and it costs vastly more than 25
cents in labor did this metal this thing
safely remove the battery so I think
that makes sense that's certainly not a
cost that should be passed on the
taxpayers yeah I mean it's a low cost
but you know what we found in that
testimony that you're talking about was
that a lot of those really waste
recycling programs don't break it down
and melt everything down into its
original element table what they do is
they collect those parts and then
actually use those to repair input
products back and regulation for K
through 12
grams for like maybe economically
challenged families can have access to
computers to do schoolwork with I mean
you know it's just I would say the the
program of last resort as opposed to
having a local repair shop do that and
you know not have to ship a smartphone
you know somewhere you know 20 miles
away and have it shipped back at some
point recycled through that e-waste
program right what do you think about
the job creation potential it's huge so
I'm curious you you said on Twitter you
said things I would never say I wish
Microsoft would engage here like Walmart
did in Arkansas instead of focusing on
the market advantage to them and killing
right to repair what was it Microsoft
that killed the bill well I mean the
world the street I can't confirm or deny
this because I've not seen a smoking gun
you know there was a tax proposal here
to raise some taxes to pay for STEM
education at the university level that
there was a large package that maybe was
agreed to to have Microsoft support that
tax in exchange for them supporting that
having right to repair died there's a
privacy builder that they're trying to
get through that some people think may
give them a market advantage and some
place around data privacy you know law
that's different than what Europe has
adopted in the GDP our law which is the
general data protection regulation that
your mere opted and there's another bill
on cloud computing that somehow there
might have been some larger deal put
together on that that right in for
repair of was part of not you know
having that bill see the light of day in
the house so this feels to me like like
there's deals that happen in
smoke-filled rooms behind the scenes
that we never really know that's at
least to me being kind of a novice being
just a repair guy I hear about deals
happening in the Rules Committee it is
the Rules Committee the smoke-filled
room where is this happening somewhere
else well every legislature is organized
a bit differently but the Rules
Committee is usually where leadership
for a given caucus that's where they
start dealing with issues they usually
don't interfere at the committee level
where the actual policy works done so
you know Paul's he works down in
committees politics happens and rules
and and usually before stuff comes out
on the floor yes where you kind of see a
political judge
and happen versus a policy judgment okay
and that's silly affair and I feel like
the some except you know we have all
these these repair shops we got
consumers grassroots these are not
necessarily people who have extensive
political experience and certainly don't
have have you know the lobbyist
connections do you think it's possible
for us to get this done yeah I mean if
not for this kind of grand scheme or
this I guess convergence of these
different issues the session I think
that we definitely would have had a
houseboat there's definitely a large
variety of members in the house that
would support it and then we could take
up the argument with the Senate
typically over the years what we've seen
in Washington state in other legislators
too is that because the demographics of
a house versus a Senate are a little bit
different as far as age and background
goes that typically technology issues
have an easier time in the house and a
tougher time in the Senate and so that's
usually where the bigger fight ends up
happening on some of these issues so we
very much would like to get over there
to prosecute a policy argument about why
this is good for the economy
you know we've got I think people and
across the board where this isn't so
much a partisan issue it's really kind
of that David Goliath type issue right
though you got a strong powerful
well-funded interests and you mentioned
something earlier I know I'm rambling
here but you know there's something that
you know in that in the tech world that
you know people call the the kill zone
for these large corporate entities where
you know you get a if you get a product
or an application or whatever it is
that's too close to supplanting what
some of these product lines for these
large tech companies are they tend to
come in and kill those products off so
you know I've you I think I've seen
Elizabeth Warren use the example
somewhere I and I may be wrong that was
her but you know if you have a great app
in the in the Apple Store for example
that's displacing stuff that they're
doing it's a little bit what Apple is
doing you know right they'll try to buy
you or you know they'll prohibit you'll
move you off their Apple Store site
that's that killzone Amazon just bought
Eero which everybody said was their
favorite favorite Wi-Fi rather was that
recommended well you know what it is a
pick it
and and and we'll see I mean hopefully
Amazon will turn it into a product but I
bet you a dollar it has Alexa built into
at that point yeah and again you know I
think what we try to do as policymakers
here is to try to get policies that let
innovation happen and commercial
relationships develop but obviously when
you get someone that's got too much
market power
you know people realize that being
vertically integrated and and
controlling the lifespan of a product is
more profitable than you know making a
evie engine that's gonna run for 40
years right well and this is something
that I wonder because we're talking
about regulation we're talking about
passing laws but we're really talking
about how do you how you ensure that
there's a free market out there and I'm
curious what what do you see as the role
of regulation and ensuring the the free
market exists in this fair yeah I mean
it's it's that's always to see for lack
of a better term the sweet spot you're
trying to get and I'll use we did it
really we did it through your process
and we were the third state to adopt a
biometric law a few years ago I think
that's a good example of trying to get
that nexus of you know in a sense
guardrails on a highway of what the
preferred activity is with a given
technology and and then you know to let
that technology innovate and grow but
yet having some rules of the road you
know before you have a behavior that you
don't want to see develops so I'm
biometrics the the philosophy there to
use it as a metaphor you know you can
join underneath our biometrics law you
can join in your commercial relationship
you want and give up your biometrics but
you will always have joint ownership
over your biometrics mean they can't
sell those biometrics without your
permission if you leave the relationship
so like with Amazon and Alexa you know
your voice your voice imprint is a
biometric at this point you leave and
you're on the Amazon customer anymore
they can only hold that for as long as
legally necessary then that should
destroy that data so they can't turn
around and sell that five years after
you leave to you know some sort of
bundle or that's going to aggregate up a
larger career
demographic if you say that allows
biometric technology developed an
innovate it allows you to join
relationships as a customer that you
have rights to your own biometrics that
can never be signed away by a Yola
agreement you didn't know what you're
hitting when we hit agree well these are
the kinds of things that the consumer
doesn't necessarily have the ability at
the time that they're deciding to use
Alexa for example to know what the full
lifespan of their biometrics are and so
it's it's heart you could say you have
the pure free market as well if you
don't want if you don't trust Amazon's
handling of your biometric data well
just go with Google but in the market
it's it's really hard for customers to
actually be informed to make that choice
yeah it is pretty much so you know one
of the things we did our biometric law
is that you cannot bury biometric data
is in a Euler agreement you got to bring
it up prominently and have it stated
simply separately in layman's terms you
know instead of legalese to how to move
forward and you know that was one of the
things we're looking at with the right
to repair bill you know if you have
products that are repairable is actually
having people mark that particular
requirement of your install a product
that's designed for planned obsolescence
you know there has to be a consumer
distinction somehow on the packaging or
something at least in Washington state
that that you can get the the device
repaired for the warranty runs out and
not not necessarily by the manufacturer
you know it's very frustrating when you
think when you buy a product and you you
know you you see all these great guides
replacing the battery online and then
you crack it open only to discover like
oh actually they've done everything they
possibly can to make it hard for me to
upgrade this thing and like you said
that you know there's nothing there to
tell you that and also you know there's
nothing and no one very few people have
time to bring their lawyer to their
kitchen table to read over the EULA with
them about the laptop they just bought
for work right and consumers two of your
at the bleeding edge have always burned
the newest best thing you know you know
that you're probably get rid of a device
within two or three years it's really
protecting a right for folks that can't
buy the best smart you know device as it
comes out every time to have access to
these devices to access the only the
local economy but the
world economy going yeah and I think
even those front end adopters who always
buy the new best thing if there were
just some simple distinction that this
is repairable object I mean basically
the batteries have anything that's got
lithium battery lithium batteries have a
have a shelf life of X amount of time
right the more heat may be exposed to
the shorter period it's gonna last so up
front if you know that that's something
that's replaceable in the device it's
not going to be technology obsolescence
that makes that device obsolete it would
just be the battery yeah it's just to
where item it's like containers like are
wearing out exactly so when I've talked
to some of the providers ahead of time
there's some talk that they've got some
sort of standards coming up for that
type of you know replace and repair
ability but I've not seen any any
movement towards a standard yet either
worldwide or in the US Europe started
talking about regulating repair ability
and they just rolled out repairability
rules for servers but they haven't done
it for anything
and also washing machines and
refrigerators but that that's just the
beginning yeah and and and so again just
the simple a placard requirement that
hey something is repairable for the
battery you can get in and replace the
battery would be a first start I think
to start looking at that no offense to
me Jeff if the if a bill made it to the
floor and people had to up or down on it
up or down vote on it do you do you have
any idea of what arguments opponents
this bill would make in full view of the
Twitter using Facebook sharing public
like how you know there's ways you can
kill the bill in committee there's you
know like you said there's some or
alluded to that there are deals that can
happen in the Rules Committee and won
chambers whatnot but like do you do you
have any idea of what the the what the
actual floor discussion or the
legislative discussion would look like
the typical rallying cries we hear or
there to read hearings do I look at it
are that you know somehow you're gonna
crush innovation here you're gonna not
allow them to develop products that they
think are that should be developed in
that in the most innovative way and then
the second is that you're creating some
sort of cybersecurity
by you know allowing again somehow for
these these devices to be broken open
and you know foreign you know agencies
getting a hold them somehow be able to
spy on on you and or manipulate through
devices in some way you know it's it's
always the the least understood part of
a policy question that usually gets
attacked by most interest groups because
most state legislators were you know
we're citizen legislators for the most
part you be on a flower shop or you're a
fireman one day the next day you're
trying to side things that on cyber
security when someone raises them that
you don't have the slightest idea about
whether someone's being honest or not
you just don't get it understand it so
you got to take people out their word
and that you might not have an idea that
essentially when it comes to those types
of things most of the time the cats out
of the bag already regardless of how
repairable the devices yeah I mean I
would argue you know it's not knowing
the circuitry to give you a device that
makes it vulnerable I mean anytime you
got a lithium battery anywhere and you
can just somehow you know send it over
voltage signal to it that's a that's a
dangerous situation right right sure so
that's not a that's not a diagram of how
something is wired it's not it's not
showing how you utilize space to make a
device smaller and smaller with more you
know more ability in it you know mostly
vulnerabilities for spine and or using
something as a weapon are more of a
rudimentary than that
but again that's what we hear time after
time and that committee hearing is that
well if you allow this you know
basically we're going to end capitalism
as we know it give away all of our best
technology to you know to places where
the the kind of English rule of law does
not prevail right well you would think
if that was the case then we would the
existing are the mother of rate repair
laws would have already given our
automotive secrets to the Chinese well
right you know and I think that type of
espionage question is something that is
different than being a concern of what's
available to your consumers and a state
that that's a federal issue that's a
that's a issue yeah yeah this isn't
about this is just about you know
diagnostics and repair manuals this is
not the the secret keys to the kingdom
right I mean I don't think the the
Bellingham repair shop owner that
contacted me about this you know a
couple years ago as a secret sleeper
cell all right well it sounds like we're
we're dead in the water in Washington
for this year but super appreciate your
efforts yeah we'll be back at it next
year for our session starting in January
and without these other issues in the
way I'm still really hopeful we can push
this forward and get a reasonable policy
in place to make sure that we have
products that can be repaired we're not
cluttering the electronic waste stream
up and people have access to smart
devices what do you think if we have
repair shops or consumers other they're
listing this what would you suggest for
them if they're in Washington and and
and excited and passionate and want to
get involved well I think you know to
still contact your legislature this
session still we're in session till
April 28th you know every legislator
tends to monitor how many contacts are
getting on topics and and any contact
they get today about the bill that we
have before us is going to make the
legislators pay more attention to it
next session when we come back and in
January that bill will still be alive
that's still the same bill number will
be used that bills alive until the
two-year term is done so any bill that
isn't passed this let's session is
automatically alive in the next session
let's go into it and that is HB 1342 if
you want to write that down see whether
you're reppin and referencing that makes
it easier when they're tallying the
totals yeah absolutely and you know for
a long legislators that don't have big
tent companies in their legislative
district or you know having people that
are being impacted by this like the
repair shop owners like people that want
smart devices at an affordable price
a lot of members if they only get 10 or
12 contacts on an issue will look at
that and decide how to vote on it on not
knowing anything else so you're not in
the policy committees you know your vote
ends up being a faith-based exercise
sometimes just upon what the committee
people are telling you about the policy
and what you've heard from your
constituents well and people are
impacted when they don't have access to
phones that don't cost $1,300 right I
imagine that having a wider variety of
trustworthy devices that you know could
be fixed in a good way helps everybody
would have a
to a wide range of prices on phones
instead of what we're seeing lately
which is new phones hyped that cost you
know in excess of a thousand dollars and
whatnot yeah absolutely and I just want
to go back to where this all started for
me it was one person that took the time
to say would you meet me for coffee and
talked about right to repair that that's
where this issue Kim you know I would
say that we probably have moved the bill
about as far as anyone except maybe
Connecticut at this point I think and
certainly in you know be in the 13th
largest state we're not the largest one
that with all the tech giants here
you know this is really ground zero they
have this this policy discussion and
that's well I'm certainly hopeful you
know being a Microsoft fan who has not
been capable of recommending Microsoft
products for a long time I really want
them to this redesign the surface and
make it more variable I think there's a
lot of opportunity for innovation and
I'd really like to see a tech
manufacturers step up and differentiate
themselves by being the sustainable
repairable long-lasting option yeah I
mean obviously being ahead of government
regulations the best place in the
marketplace and I'm hoping that
Microsoft and some of these folks will
wake up to what their customers actually
want right yeah we've got about as far
as I think we can with like who can get
thinner and thinner and thinner I don't
think that doesn't doesn't seem
impressive to people anymore I oh yeah
yeah do something else yeah well thank
you so much for joining us represented
Morris really appreciate your time yeah
thanks for all your work on this topic
it's so important I think for us as a
nation and a state so thank you well
we're gonna keep at it we have coming up
the week of April 22nd we were going to
have a hearing in Oregon and Salem we're
gonna have a hearing in Sacramento in
California and we are hopefully going to
get a floor vote in Minnesota that's
week that week so there's a lot going on
one last item I've talked to the Oregon
legislators about what we're doing up
here in Washington and there's some
national medians that happen with
legislative groups and I think as much
as possible for folks to maybe get us
together at those meetings to talk about
right to repair across state lines would
be a really good thing as well that's a
great idea will you be at NCSL this
summer yeah I'm there being in Nashville
in the first week of August and I will
be there I know a lot of the other
legislators were so even if it was just
an informal yeah let's do we
ncsl every year we fix cell phone
batteries for legislature so we have a
table we just swap batteries all week so
we'll absolutely be there we can set
something up
that's fantastic great thanks a lot you
don't really appreciate you coming on
well it's it's so enlightening to kind
of hear from the legislator perspective
right because they're I mean they have
their day job and then they're in the
Capitol building right and they just get
inundated with people telling them
things yeah I'm assuming that he had
just yes to switch from you know open
repair diagnostic tools to you know
subsidies futures you know like
transportation infrastructure this
bridge in this one town needs you know
like it it's a lot right yeah and we say
you know it's frustrating when they
don't understand these cybersecurity
arguments well they have to understand
the nuances of clean energy I mean
there's so many facets of public policy
but I have a lot of sympathy for for the
legislators and what's interesting is is
as I've been involved in this the
influence of money really has more to do
with access it's it means that you have
can afford to have a full time person
who's in the Capitol who's going in
having meetings with them on a regular
basis it's not I mean yeah maybe there
are some some of these you know deals
that are being made but it's also just
about you know persistence and so we can
compensate for the the money in the
access the lobbyists have just by a lot
of people getting vocal and getting out
there and not even money and lobbying
necessarily is the only thing it sounds
like he was saying that you know
sometimes legislators are just gun shy
about pressing on a company that might
be wrapped up in some other legislation
the alluded to doing some kind of stem
work yeah I feel like Bill or something
like and so it's like I can I
I can't sympathize but I can see how
like that's a complicated issue it's
like oh would I rather be the guy who
ruined education for kids or fought for
better homes and like I know that's not
that economy but it can seem like a
chore although I gotta say like
Microsoft going to them and saying hey
will oppose your your you know stem
education funding unless you stop this
right to repair bill yeah well take away
laptops from kids unless you let us make
these cool devices Microsoft is not
doing a great job of trying to look like
the upstanding corporate citizen here I
guess
yeah I'm I'm interested to see what
happens as bills come back I just in my
head I just keep thinking like who wants
to go out on the floor and defend some
of the richest companies in the world
and I don't think that's why I really
think if we give a floor vote it's going
to be overwhelmingly in our favor
yeah that's what I hope I hope that it's
hard it's harder to actually get out
there and say like no no no we need we
need to look after poor cash-rich Apple
and that's when we're saying a floor but
we have never gotten to the House of
Representatives to the Assembly floor
for them to have an up or down vote on
the bill it has never happened that
we've it is been introduced with this is
what we're going on five six years now
we've had this introduced in over 20
states and it's absolutely crazy that
we've never gotten the vote and that's
committees that's that's getting the
right politicians do you make it other
committees it's not really that we're
dying in committees it's it's that the
and this is where those backroom
politicking happens is there's gotta
give you wonder how many different deals
how many tax increases and corporations
agreed to so that they can avoid great
repair they have to have some internal
calculations of saying oh right to
repair is going to cost us a billion
dollars a year this tax increase will
only cost us a hundred million dollars a
year let's do that okay but I their
analysis has to be completely wrong
because if you if you look at like I
mean Dell and HP Lenovo have done this
calculation where they're saying hey
actually if we make our products more
repairable it helps us it helps
differentiate us and the market we're
supporting our customers we're making
long-lasting products and building our
brand yeah so if they actually are doing
this economic analysis the right repair
is costing them money I hate to get
inside their head it's like the sadistic
worldview that is like completely on the
planned obsolescence bandwagon I just if
you've ever met a one of those people
who like a real diehard ThinkPad fan you
know like one of those people who just
like their fingers are like are Bionic
we melded to that thing to the original
x1 right way or just any you know even
like the old thick ones like the ones
that are kind of like business standards
it's like you know they've they have
customers for life because they they
know they like that thing takes the dive
in an airport that thing you know you
can open enough you can replace the RAM
you can place the battery and like I
think some of the biggest cells I've
ever met are not necessarily been Apple
zealots or Microsoft cells but just like
people who love their ThinkPads because
like their like their bird
the proof in that you could hit the
burglar with the laptop and then use the
use the laptop to contact the police
afterwards like they're they're so good
and you know that's a that's a revenue
stream that's a customer support issue
and they've got like got fans for life
so like it's not like cutting it out
cutting out making every products more
parables is a one-way ticket to like you
know less money less revenue left what
stream I think no I'd it's a it's a
different path to building a product and
I I mean the yeah you see what we're
what we're dealing with with MacBook
keyboards that clearly you know the the
brittleness of product having making it
Center is really damaging Apple's brand
than the MacBook Pro brand in particular
I mean when you have when you've got
John Gruber during fireball saying yeah
this is an embarrassment like you when
the fanboys turn on you you know you're
in trouble so I mean do you think that
people do you think that there needs to
be a better sense of do legislators need
to feel that more of their districts and
as Jeff was saying in non tech heavy
districts cuz like you know you can you
can pick off Seattle San Francisco New
York like do people in on tech heavy
districts and they do their legislators
need to hear from them about how that's
yeah now this is very much a nationwide
global phenomenon and unless unless
citizens you know get out get engaged
talk with their reps it's not going to
happen that really like that's the all
the the public all of you everyone who's
listening and you know as a member of
the iFixit community we are really the
only antidote there is to the corporate
influence unless unless with enough of
us get out there and get involved it
won't happen right it's hard to it's
hard to imagine how it affects you until
you like just kind of see how what
you're paying for you know you're all
you're automatically affected by whether
you know it or not in terms of what you
pay for new phones in terms of like you
know your ability to buy use things that
are of good quality and you know much
you can sell your use things for exactly
yes products maintain their value better
right exactly and you just it's just a
quiet tax you don't know you're paying
yeah yeah is the resale value of product
something that you guys considered and
your wirecolor recommendations ever yeah
I mean it's it's something where it's
everything at the wire cutters a balance
you know like that we're ever
that's looking product we're going to
just pick though ever but it's it's come
up I know especially on the the PC and
laptop side if we don't consider it our
commenters and readers will definitely
let us know about it that you know we've
picked out like oh like the where card
is not afraid that was not afraid to
walk back pics or reassess them and say
like oh it turns out people really don't
like that this thing you know is
eminently breakable this one way or
whatever so yeah it's something that
especially with our guide to business
the guide to business laptops is very
much focused on repair ability because
we know that that's the thing that like
you know you've got your list yeah and
you got your whole livelihood in this
device and most of us do anyways but
like especially if it's like you've got
your sales rep you know got everything
in there that you need to do your job
repair building super important so I
know that's considered there I think so
we had an issue here in the office
yesterday well yeah I wasn't in the room
I just heard about this what why don't
you tell me what happened oh oh there's
a coffee spill direct direct onto the
keyboard coffee spill and and today and
how much coffee are we talking about of
a large amount a significant volume of
ounces and so all I know
venti size Kelsey is over here saying it
was a lot of coffee okay yeah and so
there was it was like I tweeted about it
was like being at the fire station
really core if you don't were in the
fire station when the fire alarm goes
off
imagine the scene Ghostbusters what
everyone was like excited to go down the
pole and like try out the van for the
first time cuz like it yeah they sprung
a bunch of people sprung into action
open up that MacBook like x pro quo
alcohol which I this week I learned is
rice does nothing right this is for
Zdenek rice is the prices for dinner
isopropyl alcohol actually displaces the
water and gets it out of there so yeah
they worked as hard as they could and
and and one thing I know that is
possible with that so that was one of
these 2012 MacBook Pros the first thing
we did what we were working on fixing it
was take the hard drive out put it in
another MacBook and and the the poor
victim was back to work within half an
hour absolutely with another computer
while we're working on fixing yeah but
didn't drop a a minute like sign back
into slack like we're you know right nut
didn't drop a thing but you imagine if
that had happened with one of the newest
MacBook Pros that wouldn't be possible
because the the storage is solid than
the motherboard right and so that that
unfortunately allows companies to sell
you a variety of things that you think
you need now like you know total backup
total online backup at all times because
you're just you know that as soon as you
lose your laptop you're going to move to
the cloud because we're gonna force you
there yeah exactly it's so is there
speaking of things were cited in storage
we have a question from Robert in the
chat Robert Watson it was the best
iPhone to get if I wanted one and that
feels like a very wire cutter question
to ask so if I wanted to get an iPhone
and then and I think we can have a
little bit of a debate because I feel a
different opinion than I do yes so let's
find out your personal recommendation
that we can see what wire cut is
recommending okay man and then I'll tell
you my recommendation my recommendation
after my first week and I fix it Wow
okay oh what fun do you have I have a is
a pixel - okay and that's a great phone
although for now while working while
working and when early side-effect I
need to replace the battery on it I'm
going to a different opinion of it if I
has her own phone jack it's not no it's
a one excellent yes they decided to
follow down the road of courage the
brave road of hallo Phil Schiller and
his courageous path to oblivion every
time I buy a pair of $20 bluetooth
headphones that are going into the waste
stream at some point I feel so pretty so
good about myself yes absolutely
accumulating small tiny lithium alright
so we pulled up out of the wire cutter
mm-hmm and the wire cutters recommending
the iPhone XR at the 128 gig size okay
because you can't have expandable
storage you gotta pay for sure how much
so that's an $800 falling off the shelf
apparently yes without a headphone jack
yes and if you other damage it after
your you know why the roof seals wear
out you're going to have data loss well
speaking of speaking of services they
demand you buy that's why everyone gets
AppleCare Apple Care helps with data
loss does it no no okay I don't know
your your just stuff I'll fix it they'll
replace the phone but your dad okay your
your dad is lost but yeah in terms of
like your your phone taking it so what I
thought would you recommend I mean
clearly the iPhone X s is a great phone
or are they my family jumped off iPhones
when they went
the non clickable button okay I know
that that makes that's not a City iPhone
eight would be the last phone oh no I
mean like I mean like as a clickable
like yeah I think the success actually
would be the last one before the
fingerprints that was that was a and the
clickable tactile button that was the
deal killer um yeah I mean like my wife
just tried out her friend's iPhone 7 or
iPhone 6s and was like nope that's all I
got
and I kind of agreed and I had already
kind of plan on going to Android so okay
yeah that's fair but if I I mean you
know you're also ever here Robert saying
what phone would you buy now do you
think you should buy the hundred dollar
iPhone XR or should he get a success
when my wife got an iPhone the last
phone we bought was an iPhone 6s we
bought on swampland it's been great yeah
and it still runs fantastic and for a
company you know for as much as other
things are obsolete their software
support does run better run buddy deep
Apple does a good job with iOS 12
improving performance yeah I on the 6s I
wouldn't run iOS 12 I don't even know if
you can I would stick with iOS 7
what's like the delta between the 6 and
the 8 in terms of repair ability because
I feel like the eights like the last one
where it's even like mechanically
feasible to try now they're all pretty
good ok so so let's see I'm looking at
our repair ability score and for the
iPhone 7 they've got a 7 out of 10 and
then I thought we downgraded to a 6 and
I think we've stuck at a 6 for so the
iPhone XR so I mean and there's some but
a 6 is still super service well I didn't
really say if it's a bomb before it's
something you can do without without
prior experience I always feel like I
mean my personal metric is like how
important our photos to you and like I
feel like the 6 7 8 I'll take perfectly
fine photos but it's if you're obsessed
with photos if you want the best camera
you want the best kind of like that's
something to pay for a new phone for you
know bleeding edge film like man my
lifetime of buying phones has only
taught me that like new phones are for
suckers like like watching that product
at like watching a WWDC or watching a
Google announcement and being like take
my money before I even see it like that
never
smarts me anymore so well it used to be
true I mean like the iPhone 6 was a
major upgrade from the 5 which was a
major upgrade from the 4 so it made
sense for a while we got trained but but
yeah what's interesting an XR animate
what I also like to give bloggers and
pundits a few weeks or months to tell me
about how the Bluetooth is terrible
about how like actually you know they
say that the space ID things perfect but
really like me and my brother can both
log into this phone like you know I mean
it's all it's all different quirks of
every film I like to give I now would
like to give people a few months to tell
me about all the quirks of phones gonna
have before I hand over hundreds and
hundreds of dollars that's right you
know unless your phone's broken you need
to go over so like I so bottom line my
opinion of the wall recommend an iPhone
7 or 8 7 or anything I mean unless you
like I said any much the seven or eight
and then the upgrade pick is my personal
upgrade pick that I do not monetize is
the you know the newer phone like an XLR
in excess if you're really into the
camera okay
and so my iPhone recommendation is the
SE which APIs Hill sells they're $249
yeah it fits in your pocket it fits in
your hand it's the right size for a
phone it's not massive I like my mother
Ola
but this x4 is about twice as big as the
Chevy and a Nessie is the perfect size
for a phone I actually like the touch ID
sensor although one problem with the SE
and that design was that when you open
up to repair it you have to be kind of
careful with the with the flex cable but
as long as you're careful when you're
opening it fixing it it's a great phone
that's very easy to replace the battery
on and Apple is selling them online now
for $249 and I this is weird but like I
live I live in Buffalo New York and we
you know you get about eight solid weeks
of great weather where you can bike
around without a jacket on or whatever
so a lot a few of my friends love size
phones like you I guess he or the small
phone because like it's just something
you can actually put in your leg but
then still move your leg yes and you
don't feel like you're I I feel like if
I'm doing something I might break it
like the bigger phones are more brittle
than the smaller one yeah and also just
it literally fits in your pocket you
don't feel it like weirdly like training
you by keeping your thigh down because
it's this giant slab you've decided to
mount to yourself so yeah I
I'm on the small phone train to my dream
iPhone would be an iPhone se with the
exact same form factor with a new camera
the new processor and nothing else or
just like a speck bomb for this bumpy
that's all I want
I would like to see that too which is I
think I mean the rumor is with the pixel
3a and it sounds like that's kind of
what that is that's a smaller version of
the the pixel that yeah maybe we'll have
a headphone jack the same developing
markets I see by the way has a headphone
jack where the phones that you
recommended none of them do but you can
I'll let you the Royal UI I do not how
many how many you know lightening the
headphone jack adapters do you have no
oh I have none well but yeah one does
you have one must have many I I went to
I went to Luke Luke as a pixel too and I
had an extra USB see the headphone jack
adapter I gave it to him he looked at me
like I was giving him the greatest back
in the history of mankind like this nine
dollar adapter is going to save your
life yeah I mean right I was I bought
all this you of this USB see stuff when
my work laptop was a newer back book and
then like all done someone hands you
this perfectly fine laptop that has
ports for everything you need and I I
have this whole bin of things that I no
longer need because I don't need like a
USB hub for my desk anymore
you know like USB C is such or lightning
ports and stuff like that they seem
likes like the way forward but like
actually like just having stuff work
when you plug it in you know is good
absolute good feel good feel ya know
digital handshake it's great yeah yeah
you can you can pry my headphone jack
out of my cold dead hands yeah so so
recapping this is a fascinating
conversation it's great to have a
representative who's been on we have
freedom fighters across the country like
representative Morris he is he's been
really dedicated to making this happen
in Washington the last two years but
there are dozens of legislators that
have been involved in helping make retro
very happen this is not us against the
politicians this is us and a lot of
really fantastic legislators and the
repair community all fighting up against
this entrenched corporate machine I like
to say right to repair is something all
humans are in favor of
it's the corporation's and their Thea
that the use of you know the extension
arm of the corporation it is the
lobbyists and the lawyers that really
are our enemy not I think any evening
people even the people they're a while I
have a lot of friends who work at
Microsoft and they all want repairable
surfaces - yeah this is something that I
think we can all get on board the
national scene we're seeing right to
repair rollout state-by-state whether
the key states right now we got
Minnesota that's still the primary
battleground I think that's that's a
viable bill that can still be affected
by people working calling contacting
people especially if you live there of
course but you know there's a vote
probably around the week of the 23rd
yeah it sounds like that that week we
will probably have a floor vote we have
made it out of two committees in
Minnesota so we didn't get stopped in
the rules like committee like we did in
in Washington it's very possible we will
go for both and if we do this a
fantastic chance so if you if you have
relatives who live in Minnesota if you
have friends Minnesota even if you just
want to go hang out on Reddit slash are
slash Minnesota it also meaning it's
snowed in Minnesota last night so it's
it's still not time to go outside so
instead yes absolutely yes I have a
friend who has a picture of a tree that
just fell on their car so he can't drive
anywhere anyway Saeki might as well stay
inside the columns yeah they they should
instead go to prepared org slash stand
up okay and we had a bunch of folks
visit the Sacramento Capitol here in
California last week and actually this
week on Monday and have a lot of great
meetings with legislators a lot of
people really interested we're going to
have a hearing in Sacramento on Tuesday
the 23rd of April so if you're in the
Sacramento area please come down check
that out also in Oregon for all of our
Guardian listeners Monday the 22nd we're
anticipating having a hearing so there's
going to be a very very busy month also
the FTC has launched this investigation
and mixing the fix and they are looking
for public comments on obstacles to
repair we will post the link in the show
comments but feel free to write the FTC
a story they want to know what the times
and places have gotten in the way of
your fixing things yeah and you can just
google FTC Nixon effects
n IX ing the fix to get there it's this
site has a links on it you can submit
stories evidence your opinions things
like that complain to them about glue
them batteries if you want or how lack
of diagnostic software tell them about
the time you open that your iPhone se
and broke your touch ID your friends are
sticking here in that story but the FTC
is not they are not they're very
interested alright so this has been a
great show if you want us to keep doing
the show a favor to ask of you
please go on to your favorite podcast
app and rate the show that will that's
the biggest signal to let people know
that we're actually not going to put you
to sleep that this is interesting
engaging that we have the relevant the
things to say about the world of tech
policy and and and the world of repair
we're going to be diving into some more
repair stories in in future episodes I
want to get dive in and talk about what
the FTC is doing and why the heck a
federal agency cares about repair and
also we just want to answer your repair
questions so that we're gonna we're
gonna do a stump the expert see if you
can give me you know so challenging
repair questions we'll see if we can
solve them on the air for you
alright thanks thanks for joining us and
and really excited to have Kevin on
board this is a lot of fun I'm excited
to be here ready to register fix and
stuff awesome
have a great day everybody