fair enough
good so what's the what's the weather
like out in New York it's actually nice
today
it's been yesterday was like 35 and
windy but today it's like maybe more
around 50 so okay spring is upon us I
believe but yeah we can say for sure
your studio is so red I did the same
thing with one of our conference rooms
like it's gonna be you know this really
energetic but they're totally screws the
video set yes yeah so I mean it's so
cold that we I decided to place myself
in a very warm okay shall we get started
yeah Italy so thanks everyone for
joining us this is repair radio where we
fill you in on the right to repair
movement and talk about a lot of other
cool repair stuff we go live every other
Thursday on our channel and then we post
this audio on to all the podcasts I have
a podcast and everything like that so if
you can't watch it today you can always
listen in and be sure to subscribe to
the podcast on Apple podcast because
we'll be talking about repair right to
repair because it's really ramping up in
the US but even after you know right to
repair kind of ebbs and flows throughout
the year we'll have lots of other cool
iFixit repair stuff and repair and tech
news to kind of talk about so be sure to
subscribe but for those that are just
saying there's so much going on right
there is so much news this week what's
the summary on just right to repair for
people that maybe like just saw some of
these first articles today it's a retro
pairs the idea that you ought to be able
to fix your stuff if you have something
and it's broken you should be able to
either fix it yourself or take it to a
local shop and get it fixed you should
have a choice yeah like the Mart free
markets work better when we have choice
and and right now manufacturers are they
are limiting access to parts and
diagnostic tools to reduce the choice
that we have aware we can get our stuff
fixed and we already do this with our
cars you don't have to take your car to
the same shop to get a fixer to the
dealership to get it fixed every single
time and so it's just a consumer rights
issues our stuff we should be able to
get it fixed how we want but this week
has been crazy thanks to
Jason Kobler from motherboard he's been
a friend for a long time helping us
cover write to repair but somebody got
elizabeth warren that supporting
national policy we've got leaked
internal documentation from apple coming
through we got a huge leak from asus so
there's just so much going on there
summer to talk about I'm really excited
but I think you know of course also this
week was the Apple event most
importantly Jason so what was your
favorite thing from the Apple event was
it Oprah was it the credit card reese
witherspoon what was your favorite
moment know what I mean I usually do
have a theremin and this one I didn't
have I didn't like anything I mean there
was a lot of like very lofty talk about
how journalism is important and
magazines are a part of our culture but
it all felt very surface level and I
guess the journalists look okay analyst
you didn't feel like you know they're
validating your profession apples not
coming to save the day I guess is my
thought but the card did throw me for a
loop though I think Apple reinventing
the credit card with basically the same
thing we've seen from a lot of other
people is it was cool to see that get
given the keynote to treatment I'd say
how what and everybody said there wasn't
going to be any hardware at this event
yeah they were proven wrong yeah
titanium guard most beautifully designed
card ever and then it's like all white
with the fancy milling so that they
showed that video of the milling process
of how they make the Machine and and my
friends were a machinist said no way
that's totally fake over the top and
then a some of that I know he got leaked
from from internal I guess they like
took the whole milling machine apart and
that video is supposedly actual real
than milling the machine but it does it
looks like like a Hollywood kind of fake
production of a machine shop but
according to rumors it actually is
really them knowing this titanium then
which is I mean Apple just goes over the
top like let's spend half a million
dollars getting a three second clip of
us milling up million titanium bit
so much money just like what do you see
are people gonna be I feel like this is
gonna be the saddest thing like flash
down your titanium card yeah I think so
I mean you already look at people who
have like the metal cards that already
exist and I always feel very poor next
to them but you know those have high
annual fees and probably they're in debt
up to their eyeballs who knows but yeah
I can't wait for lots of people to be
even more in debt to Apple yeah you have
the iPhone replacement program where you
kind of have to re-up every year and you
you forever Apple money and right now
you can owe them interest too you can
have them interested or Apple and
Goldman Sachs's that's right so they're
a bank now they're you know this little
media conglomerate and they're doing
hardware and it just feels like it's
more and more greater monopoly of things
but I want to get one of these cards I
think it might be good as a steak knife
sharp telling you but I wonder if we
could like take a part of phone with one
if you can take it like kind of like
Jimmy Apple Jimmy oh we could tear down
a phone with one of the new cards I
should go apply I should go apply or
just or just turn down a card guys
wonder how many layers but I think we've
got some actually more important and a
really interesting news when it comes to
you know fixing not just the Apple
things but all the things Elizabeth
Warren came out and said that she
supports a national right to repair
policy and it's kind of it's geared
towards AG but her interview on MSNBC
was or yeah was I mean everything she
said just sounded just it's just like
the same language that we're using a
might repair for electronics so I
thought so I was I was really impressed
what do you think you know this was
coming Kyle
I normally I have a pretty good feeling
whether it's coming I had no idea it
totally took me by surprise they didn't
reach out to us and talk to us at all
and they said that they based it on the
Wyoming bill which is one of the like
bills that didn't make any progress at
haha so I think it this is a AG policy
person on her staff that picked up the
issue and decided to run with it
she's seen you've been covering this
you know topic with farmers in Nebraska
and everything did you know or did
anybody else that you know see this
coming it's just huge oh no no one knows
where this came from and after we
published the article Elizabeth Warren's
people reached out to us because we
weren't super clear that this was AG
only which we can talk about in a minute
but I was like hey dude have you seen
our documentary which has I think over 2
million views on YouTube that we made
out in Nebraska with farmers who are
hacking their John Deere tractors and
the right to remove Nebraska and they
said no he had no idea thanks for
sending it along so I don't know that
they just maybe they came to this
completely independent of any of the
coverage that's happened it's
interesting to see that too with like
right - Rick Canada there Australia it's
like you know we're ten we're kind of
the hub for it here in the US but yeah
where are people hearing from rice if
not from you guys and from you know yeah
it's interesting
well it's great to see you know you have
a good idea and it snowballs and it gets
out beyond your control and that's
that's the best possible situation right
because this is an idea that needs to
happen and it can't possibly happen if
we control every aspect of it and so
this is geared you know specifically
towards Ag and they made sure to clarify
that and you know we kind of see it as a
lot of that AG equipment is tech it's
electronics that are you know similar to
what's in your laptop and your phone and
so you know I'm sure we'd like to see it
expand it in some way but you know what
didn't what incentives Jason or both who
do you think they had to separate it I
know it's easier to kind of deal with
like one or a pair a problem at a time
in a sense in that like AG repair versus
tech report there's different speed bugs
to overcome legally but like why am i
separated or why I just hackle one
instead of all the tech stuff the same
thing applies to both yeah I mean my
sense on this is that yesterday
Elizabeth Warren announced her big
agriculture thing you know a few weeks
ago she had the plan to break up big
tech and although the issues are so
closely intertwined and really is
they're the same issue when you talk
about right to repair I think she was
like today is my day to reach out to
farmers maybe I'll reach out to you know
the average electronics consumer
sometime in the future I get this sense
that you know maybe her team is still
learning about right to repair I think
that her statement and that the
interview showed a pretty firm grasp of
the issue and it's a cool thing to see
she's definitely the highest profile
politician in the u.s. to come out in
favor of this but I think maybe she's
trying to learn more about the issues
when it comes to a consumer facing bill
and then maybe she'll support something
like that down the line
well this is our chance to educate her
so I would I would suggest everybody
tweet at Elizabeth Warren our post on on
her Facebook and ask her the support of
broader rights repair and watch that
video the clip from the show because if
you put if you replace farmers and
equipment with consumers and their
personal electronics I mean the same
thing it's such a similar language it's
so close so hopefully I really hope that
you know we can you know get her to kind
of expand the policy if and when she
becomes a one did you know this what
we'll post the link to the MSNBC
interview and the show notes but the the
interviewer said you know I've read a
lot about right to repair right and I
interpreted that two ways one we haven't
covered it and he's feeling a little bit
bad about that and two he's probably
been reading what you've been writing
about rate repair I hope so I mean it's
it seems like there are more people
covering at this time around and I like
to see that I also want to keep breaking
stories in this space so the competition
is welcome I would say because I want
this issue to be more mainstream but I
also I want to keep getting the scoops
so I'm curious what you think of this
because it's obviously a very powerful
ally to have here but she called for a
national rights repair law and so far
the rights or repair movement has
focused very much on at a federal level
the DMCA issues but on at the state
level you know the rights for repair
legislation and you haven't tried to get
legislation push through federally could
this work it totally could work it
absolutely is something that we could do
at the federal level the reason that we
didn't try was that in the auto rate
repair fight back in I think the early
2000s the auto aftermarket Association
tried to do a national
and they just got nowhere in Congress
and they found that the influence of
Ford and GM in politics at the national
level was just so significant and so
they they've shifted their strategy from
a national strategy to a straight state
strategy that was ultimately effective
so from a pragmatic perspective you know
I'm very interested in accomplishing
this but it has felt easier to work at a
state level than to try to get this down
to the national level but that very
easily could change if we have you know
the dynamics of power shift or if if
this becomes enough of a mainstream
issue you have I mean Elizabeth Warren
in addition to running for president is
also remember the United States Senate
and so it's a pretty big deal to have a
u.s. senator saying that this is one of
their top priorities I think if we could
get some bipartisan support if we could
get some of these AG world senators
maybe Ben Sasse from Nebraska jumping on
board I think if we had Ben Sasse and
Elizabeth Warren aligned on an issue
that could be really powerful yeah and I
think an important thing to note is that
you know when you talk about attacking
at a state level it is a very bipartisan
thing it's you know Democrats and
Republicans both have sponsored this
bill in in different states you know
you've seen it come up in rural states
that are very red and you've also seen
it come up in places like New York in
Massachusetts so I mean yeah maybe maybe
we'll get this passed at a national
level I hope so and I think that's
something to be really clear on this
yesterday I met Elizabeth Warren and
she's one of the more progressive
candidates running but this is not this
is fundamentally not an issue that is
aligned on one side of the political
spectrum or another it's this is a
free-market issue and one thing that I
like about Elizabeth Warren's policies
coming out from a businessperson who
probably traditionally is lean more
conservative is that she is advocating a
free-market approach that she's saying
look it seems like of all of the the
Democratic candidates right she's almost
the most capitalist she's the one with
the economics background she's saying
look we want we want these companies to
be running things we want a free market
but the free market has to have some
rules that competition just creates more
options and you know lower prices for
people to get things fixed and so
that competition is healthy and that
doesn't happen when you've got everybody
just kind of all the manufacturers
harboring it the repair resources to
themselves we've got some cool comments
coming in somebody says no one's forcing
you to buy a John Deere tractor or a
shooting new iPhone from Apple and it's
like well shooting stuff and good stuff
breaks so it was it what do you think
about argument Jason where people say
look you know just buy it from the
company that that does make repair
options you don't have to buy the John
Deere yeah I've heard this argument time
and time and time again and it drives me
nuts and the reason for that is I talked
to sort of academics who have studied
this space errand person now ski who's
the author of the end of ownership over
at Case Western Reserve University which
is a great book if you're into the legal
aspect of this I recommend it if you're
not into reading a book by a lawyer
don't read it yeah if you want the
details very readable book for being
written by a lawyer I'd say but yes it
is a book written by a lawyer in any
case we've seen this sort of across the
board I mean it's no coincidence that
John Deere and Apple have a very similar
like they couldn't be more different
companies and they have the same you
know perspective on repair so I think
there are companies who do better than
Apple and do better than John Deere but
I don't think that voting with your
wallet as they say is is very effective
it's such a complex market and there are
so many signals that yeah having to
decide between iOS and Android is a
significant choice having repair as an
additional factor in that choice muddies
the waters it's also very challenging
for consumers to make repair decisions
up front because you don't know what the
support ecosystem is going to be you
also hope it won't break
yeah there's a moment of optimism when
you're buying something we're not
generally buying something with the
anticipation invested so much money into
it forever no we've got some people
asking you know what other barriers are
we facing so what it's the difference
between the barriers of trying to get
this not this past at a national level
versus state level because just because
this is you know we've got senator
supporting it at the national level
doesn't mean that we should stop finding
at the state level but I know that the
diffic it it's difficult
ways I guess but so is it wood it is it
possible to where we could get you know
a state passed at the state level before
like a national policy and should we you
know keep going or something we should
move for yeah I think absolutely I mean
a state bill and what we learned from
Massachusetts was we passed one state
bill and and and then how the
manufacturers decided to sign a
memorandum of understanding expanding
the Massachusetts build the cover the
whole country and that was a compromise
that they made with the with the auto
aftermarket Association they said look
you got your state bill you effectively
won we're gonna have to make a different
car in Massachusetts please don't keep
trying to pass different bills around
the country and I would say for the
manufacturers so they're watching those
of us in the space are very happy to you
know figure out a way to apply a single
state law to the rest of the country we
don't have to pass a cascade of laws but
we will if we need to
you don't think Apple wants 40 different
laws and 40 different states and the
repair world doesn't want that either
this is the challenge with state
regulation we have this mismatch yet we
in the electronic recycling world right
now where because the manufacturers
refused to agree to a national law
states passed one law after another and
there are 25 different states there 25
different regimes and they are all very
slightly different and you all the big
electronic helpers have had to do is
hire specialists to manage this 25
different Paul you know policy it's it's
been very complicated and expensive for
them and I think everybody on all sides
and manufactures include if we could go
back and not have the 25 state fills and
have a national bill they would prefer
that but that's not where we're at and
then that it's a direct result of them
refusing to compromise earlier on in the
national discussions and we've been you
know partying at the state level because
we're you know it's kind of a grassroots
movement in this whole thing like that's
we can not gun we can contact our state
legislators easier than we can get to
some people at the national level but
yeah as the journalist I'll say that I
like that there are 25 different
recycling laws because each state is
slightly different which means the
company is give each state slightly
different information when they're
filing you know when they're filing
their paperwork so I filed a bunch of
FOIA as a few years ago and it turns out
that Wisconsin
as very like interesting questions on it
so why are you recycling questionnaire
that led to a lot of stories that I
couldn't get from any other state
because Wisconsin happens to ask like a
very specific question about whether or
not the material being recycled could be
reused and Apple very specifically said
no it must be shredded that's
fascinating
doesn't happen any other state and Apple
has been so aggressive on destruction
they want to control their brand so much
they require recyclers to destroy things
it's it's kind of infuriating from an
environmental perspective especially
with popular devices like these like
even these you know we're running these
2012 13 MacBook Pros like in people
bridging the digital by getting these
devices to people that can still use
them these are youth um these are
materials that are usable and you know
can be recycled
you know properly if the devices are
built to be disassembled well one thing
that I've found that it's hard to get
people excited about the recycling story
I would feel like recycling is integral
to to care the future of society how
have you been able to get people
interested and focused on on end-of-life
issues it's hard I mean I think that the
things that have worked for us have
largely been around large corporations
making it harder for you to save things
so the Apple shredding story has been
really good I did a big story about CRT
recycling which is kind of a more
straightforward like what are we doing
with all these CRTs and that story did
well in part because we had really crazy
photos to go along with it so you know
they're these graveyards of just
thousands of old CRT TVs in Arizona and
Ohio we've also learned that a lot of
our a ways to ship to places like Hong
Kong and different countries in Africa
where they're disassembled by hand and
we're sort of making people like these
are toxic devices once you start
disassembling them and underpaid labor
is getting sick from doing that so
people sometimes care about that sort of
thing it's not quite as sexy as here's
the new iPhone that you can buy but
people I have
that people do care it's maybe a smaller
subset but people care very deeply about
right to repair they care a little bit
less about recycling but it's a
subsection of that large audience that
cares about right to repair that sort of
follows follows that down the wormhole
to that level I think yeah because it's
consumer rights and then you're touching
on almost human rights as a result of
our you know over you know production
and manufacturers creating devices that
are not built to last and then you know
consumer rights and then the
sustainability aspect so there's you
know a point within this issue that
everybody can identify with even if they
don't think that they're never gonna
break the red phone or just gonna buy
the you know the best product that's not
gonna break like everybody has something
that breaks and everybody can relate to
it on some levels that's great you had I
know this was maybe this is last year
when you had to try to fix your own you
were you fixing your IMAX screen and
kind of wrote a story about that in your
experience trying to get that fixed teen
tell us a little bit more about how that
went cuz that's not an easy repair at
all
I've fixed all sorts of things I
actually got into rights repair because
I did karaoke one night in Dallas Texas
when I was covering like I was at a work
conference and I slept with my MacBook
Pro on my bed I kicked it off the bed
and it landed facedown on a chair and
the LCD cracked and I didn't have money
to get a fix that was gonna be like a
thousand bucks and I found a an LCD
screen on eBay for fifty dollars and
then I found that I fixed it existed and
I found instructions to install it I
didn't have any other right tools and
luckily this was before pentalobe screws
were thing and so I opened up the
MacBook Pro used an exacto knife for to
like remove the screen which I wouldn't
recommend because there's lots of wires
there and it took like 12 hours
overall I stayed up the entire night and
I eventually got to put back together
and he was fine so since then I've been
maybe a little bit ambitious on some of
my repairs so I bought an iMac retina a
couple years ago and this was the first
one that had upgradable RAM for quite
sometime is like the 21 inch right and
it was like I was like yeah I'm gonna
buy the base model I'm gonna buy another
SSD and I'm gonna buy 32 gigs of RAM and
I'm gonna make this a killer device and
I went in and I installed it for a video
on motherboard and everything went fine
actually it was good but I wasn't able
to get the SSD working because I bought
the wrong cable to install it with but
for the video purpose like I was in a
studio they're like you have an hour to
do this for like two hours and I was
like oh actually I need to take this
part again and like do all this other
stuff and they're like no we got to get
out of here so I just put it back
together left the SSD in there even
though it wasn't working and then I went
back a few weeks later and I was like
okay I'll try to get this taken care of
and when I open it up again presumably I
broke something I put it yeah so I put
it back - yes and then suddenly the
screen went off one day like it just
went black I was on a call just like
this actually a video call and the
screen went black but the audio kept oh
I know well I guess I did something bad
the second time I went in and some
repairs are easier than others that you
had access access to the parts that you
needed and going back to like lioness
tech tips they had their huge like iMac
repair fiasco they were trying to you
know get Apple I think they were like
maybe just out of warranty like beyond
the first year and you know it was it
was a brand new machine that they had
damaged we caused the damage pay for the
part just give us the part and they
wouldn't they wouldn't sell them the
part at all well they kind of give him
the runaround but they wouldn't sell
them the part so the like right to
repair is part of just getting these
parts more available not for us the
people that sell the parts or were you
know we're but to repair shops and then
to individual you know consumers and
we've got Apple some internal Docs from
Apple that shows that Apple wants to get
more genuine parts to independent repair
shops which is like that's exactly and
diagnostic tools is exactly what we're
asking for within right to repair but it
feels like
feels too good to be true and I'm like
what so this you guys got this internal
leaked Apple document tell us tell us
what you found yeah so I don't have the
article in front of me so I forget
exactly what the presentation is called
I think it's Apple genuine parts repair
I believe yeah and this program seems to
be different from its authorized service
provider program in that if you're an
ASP you're able to replace the screen of
an iPhone you're able to install a new
battery but basically if anything else
happens you have to take the device and
mail it back to Apple a new charging
port
like a new speaker stuff like that with
this program Apple is still selling
parts to presumably a SPS we definitely
know that they're selling it to at least
four bigger chains right now and they're
selling parts they're also saying that
they can do any repair that they want it
seems like they set their own prices
although I'm not positive on that
they're also getting Apple Diagnostics
as well as Apple training and Apple
documentation too so I would imagine
they're also getting Apple tools when it
comes to things like it's I guess it's
like this hinge device that we've seen
where you can I don't know you've seen
this device what is this thing with that
bet you can take the screen off and it's
on a hinge and it's a metal clamp basic
yeah let's just say it's a suction cup
apparatus Samsung uses this as well it's
it's a expensive fixture for removing
screens in kind of predictable fashion
it's the kind of thing that if you're if
you're running a repair shop you would
want access to consumer probably
wouldn't wanna spend the money for a
specialized tool right I think a lot of
learning that Apple is either planning
or has already rolled out this program
and like you said it looks very much
like right to repair it seems to comply
with almost all of the stipulations of
the legislation that we've seen so far
and I you know I talked to you Kyle for
this article and you said you know this
looks like what we're asking for but you
know Apple is trying to keep it out on
its own terms
yeah and and it'd be to kind of set the
stage for this this seems to be a
presentation that they were pitching
to some of the biggest repair chains we
don't know exactly who but it's really
interesting that the Apple is saying
we're going to go and we're going to
anoint a few very particular companies
to be the ones able to run this and I
guess the question is what is the intent
is this the beginning of them rolling
this out to everybody or is this them
saying we're just going to have a few
partners that we work with and nobody
else is allowed to do this or to say hey
look we are expanding our services and
we are giving you know people more
options and is it possible they're
saying oh you don't need write to repair
coz we've like but that this isn't even
them enough you know independent repair
shops to really you know serves the need
for repairs that need to be done I just
kind of wonder what like but the motive
is well what do you think they're
short-term objective is here I think
they're short-term objective is probably
to kill legislation by saying hey we are
offering what you're asking stop asking
for a bill we've seen that John Deere
and the agricultural manufacturers did
the exact same thing in California last
year there was a right to repair bill
proposed in California and the farm
bureau in California reached an
agreement with the agricultural
Manufacturers Association that basically
said hey we'll give you al are down
version of rights and repair in 2021
let's just drop this legislation and
then we have John Deere at the end of
last year speaking to a big conference
of agricultural manufacturers saying our
we're so proud that we killed right to
repair this year so presumably Apple
does not want legislation passed
presumably they have more or less the
same incentives that John Deere has the
bad news is that Apple is smart enough I
guess to not talk about this at all
unless they have an executive onstage
somewhere where someone is able to where
they can't run away or hang up the phone
or say hey there's off the record right
well is if this is a peek behind the
curtain because we get to see a
presentation that they're giving because
yeah we don't see Apple speaking
publicly we have to rely on leaks like
this and this leak I mean it's
interesting it seems to be real
clear that they're saying hey we we are
capable of providing a network with
genuine parts and diagnostics that's not
what they've been telling legislators
they've been saying if they make that
agnostic civ ailable it's going to
undermine their whole security model
what what gives with that yeah I mean
the so Apple lobbied a few years ago to
kill rights for a pair like we have
business cards of lobbyists that have an
Apple logo on them meeting with state
legislators
I don't know how involved Apple
currently is unlike meeting with state
legislators but what they have done is
they've partnered with all these bigger
trade organizations like dia CompTIA
they all have names that maybe you've
heard of maybe you haven't and they have
said you know if we give right to repair
if this legislation passes there will be
safety issues there will be security
issues you know consumers will break
things and then we can't stand behind
our products just all these different
sorts of arguments and it's very
interesting because in this in this
presentation Apple doesn't bring up any
of those concerns you know it says that
it can give out diagnostic tools to
mobile kangaroo which is you know a
chain in California that has 25 stores
or so and it's like if Mobil kangaroo
can have Apple Diagnostics like why
can't other other repair shops because
once it's out of Cupertino once it's out
of apples control you know it might as
well be out there I guess that's that's
the way I look at it I think that the
the security issues have been overblown
and they haven't really seen that one
you have the vibe that I've gotten is
that they're able to use these security
arguments because it legislators don't
understand the technology and so they
get afraid of making mistake yeah I mean
I was in Olympia monthly half ago and
and we had represented some
manufacturers testifying that there will
be all kinds of cyber security problems
as a result of this and you just have to
scratch your head
so I mean think about it too you know
there are thousands of Apple stores all
around and they all have you know
diagnostic tools and documentation and
that sort of thing and you know Apple
geniuses are smart people but there
there are thousands of them you know and
and Apple can't trust all of them if
Apple designed a product that you know
had a big security flaw associated with
repair it would already have that
problem to justify the nature of the
fact that they have so many stores with
so many people working on this thing not
gonna be less secure after the fact like
after write to repair well you have to
if you think about from the
manufacturers perspective your
engineering documentation your trade
secrets once your your putting it out in
say 500 Apple stores is probably isn't
gonna be a trade secret anymore because
because it's very possible these these
$15 an hour Apple geniuses are going to
you know it's gonna leak or they're
gonna accidentally throw it in the
dumpster and some will post on the
Internet these things happen reporters
get their hands on all kinds of
information and sneaky ways
interestingly seemingly so soon so this
I mean this document in public now we
published other Apple internal documents
before and the iPhone is still the most
secure smartphone out there I don't
think that Apple is designed the iPhone
is a very smart way when it comes to
security and they're theirs to me you
know we have some of the best security
reporters out there in Lorenzo Francesca
beaker I and Joseph Cox and we've
written all about Apple security and you
know it's a it's a very serious team
it's good that Apple takes security so
seriously and they take it seriously
enough that you know it can't be
compromised by repair well I clearly if
Apple with as serious as Lee as they
take security and they clearly lead the
industry they've got the the there there
are usually five steps ahead Android on
on security if they are saying hey we
can provide mobile kangaroo with their
diagnostic software what does that say
about about what what kind of security
betting do you think they did in order
to be a list to do that I don't know
kind of security vetting they did
necessarily but I think
when it comes to security issues around
right to repair you know Apple obviously
takes us seriously but there are so many
internet things companies like you know
surveillance camera companies that don't
think about this at all that had been
hacked over the years and I don't think
it is a good excuse that you know this
legislation can't be passed because you
know a smart home manufacturer didn't
think about the things that Apple does I
think that every manufacturer should
take security seriously in the design of
their products and we've seen time and
time again that you know all these
companies have been act in some way
shape or form and right to repair
doesn't exist now it's not like we're
living in an extremely secure society as
which i think is a great transition to
another story that you broke this week
Kim Zetter I'm friends with and is
absolutely a phenomenal one of the
world's foremost security researchers
wrote this mind-blowing story for you
about Asus can you tell give us a lot
what in the world did they do this is
this is mind-blowing I mean we I don't
know if we should start with the big
hack story over the over the summer with
Bloomberg but basically there there have
been a lot of concerns about so-called
supply chain hacks which is where
someone hacks something somewhere along
in the supply chain there interesting an
evil microchip into the end of the
manufacturing process right so so
Bloomberg said that you know a Chinese
company was inserting a tiny chip a tiny
surveillance ship into these servers
that were sold to a bunch of different
companies including Apple over the
summer everyone freaked out Congress
freaked out the Senate freaked out Apple
very vehemently denied it and ultimately
Bloomberg hasn't really been able to
prove that reporting it's a it's very
weird situation because it was such a
big story and no one else has been able
to confirm it right well you think about
how hard it would be to do that to sneak
a you know modification without the
manufacturers knowledge into the
manufacture near the OEM whose design
getting additional physical part placed
on the board in such a way that that's
undetectable and it would pass security
like it is hypothetically possible but
so expensive and challenging that it's
it's it's hard to believe that it
happened without you know everybody
looking at it after the fact and and
being able to find evidence as far as I
know there hasn't been a shred of
evidence backing up the bloomberg story
since then yeah I don't think so I'm
very curious where that is now but I
bring this up only because there are
hardware supply chain attacks and then
there are software supply chain attacks
the hack the supposed hack described by
Bloomberg was a hardware supply chain
attack where there was a malicious chip
inserted this Asus attack was a software
supply chain attack basically someone
was able to get access to a sis's
software update certificate so when Asus
issued a software update its developers
need to sign a certificate that says hey
this is a genuine Asus update those G's
that sign the certificate are like
that's the Holy of Holies right yeah I
mean this is like yes this is the most
protect in theory should be the most
protected code like I can't imagine what
Apple does with its own signing
certificate right you can imagine at a
big company you've got like access to
the main company bank account and these
secure signing keys and you're not sure
which is more important like these
signing keys are the this is the key to
the kingdom right and in fact I've
talked to other companies about signing
Keys before and they described it almost
like a nuclear launch code where it's
like five people need to turn the key in
order to actually push out an update
because it's so like you can't even
trust one person at a company you
shouldn't even trust like the CEO of the
company because if they decide that they
hate like want to go off their rocker
one day and push a weird software update
it's a really bad thing so what we
learned is that Asus somehow lost its
security certificates and someone has
been pushing faulty faulty software
updates to thousands of its customers
over the last year is highly
gated malware it was discovered by
Kaspersky Lab which is a Russian
antivirus company that also does a lot
of security research and it was verified
by Symantec which is another huge
antivirus and security research company
and what happened here was yeah like you
would be using your aces computer you
get a little pop up saying hey there's a
new firmware update for you know your
computer
our software update you click yes I want
to install it and then you'd be
installing malware that was digitally
signed by ASUS so ASIS in effect was
installing malware on its own computers
which is very very bad and this is crazy
I'm looking at the screen here and we
have this is a update that is coming
from Asus it says the digital signature
is okay so we cryptographically verified
that this was signed by Asus this is the
secure mechanism that we have to make
sure that the software update that
you're installing has been okayed by the
manufacturer yes yeah so Asus was
okaying this malware apparently without
its knowledge because this is very bad
for Asus so you know someone was able to
take to steal these certificates it not
only steal these certificates but upload
software software updates that Asus
itself wasn't aware of you know multiple
times we also learned that this was very
sophisticated malware in the fact that
it was apparently only targeting 600
computers so it was installed into
thousands of them but it only activated
itself on the computers of 600 people
and it was searching for specific MAC
addresses like this feels like a cyber
espionage at this point yeah I mean
we're pretty sure that it's
state-sponsored we don't know who but
you know this this was bad when it
happened to ccleaner which is isn't it
like a disk defragmentation software or
something like this in any case it's a
it's a freeware you know software that
also had this exact same thing happened
to it last year but ccleaner is a
company that has I don't know probably
like five employees ryan asus is one of
them
hardware manufacturers in the world
right we bring this up in relationship
to right to repair because lobbyists are
using these examples as you know things
that will happen if right to repairs
past but these are happening in the
house right now and granite we can't
we've proved the Bloomberg hardware
thing but from the software perspective
that's just it's yeah so this is this is
the thing is they've been saying we are
the source of truth we are the source of
traffic does not trust anyone but us
does any other rights repair legislation
require manufacturers to hand over their
their software signing certificates
absolutely not this is this is crazy I
mean we understand that the people who
are writing the right to repair
legislation are security researchers and
experts we understand this up and
absolutely we are not asking for that I
would say the manufacturers have told
legislators that this is the kind of
thing that we're asking for but we
absolutely are not we don't want the
source code we don't want the same in
keys we just want the tactic tool first
they want this and then no but this this
goes to the root of trust I remember
when we were going through the DMCA
process we were talking to automakers
and we said hey we need to be able to
repair our vehicles and one of the
arguments that the automaker said was
you can't we can't trust you to repair
your vehicles because you could go in
and muck with the emission system and
cause them to violate the laws and a
month after they made that argument the
Volkswagen scandal came out and it
turned out the Volkswagen had been
mucking with the the emissions standards
and and and you know blatantly violating
laws in many countries just that the
average consumer would want I mean to do
that
I mean maybe anyways or just like what
the tractors to is just I don't know
that's a little out of that attached so
their argument boils down to trust us
what do you think I mean I think that
we've done enough reporting over the
last few years that it seems like the
opposition to rights or repair is
largely in bad faith I have not heard a
whole lot of decent arguments against
rights for repair I do believe that if
legislation passes it will be annoying
to some manufacturers but I mean that
shouldn't be
reason why why the legislation shouldn't
pass and I think that ultimately like
this comes down to the fact that many of
these manufacturers have gone to extreme
lengths to to earn earn but to solidify
repair monopolies I mean we've seen it
with things like software locks on John
Deere tractors we've seen it with things
like error God I'm forgetting it was
error 53 on on iPhones and we've seen it
on things like air conditioners and
vacuum cleaners and soda streams and all
this sort of things so yeah I think that
the industry is scared at this point and
you're starting to see it with moves
like the Apple genuine parts program
where they're trying to get it a little
right it seems like they're starting the
king they want to give a little in hopes
that if they if they compromise with us
a little bit maybe it will reduce the
pressure yeah Jason have you you're in
New York
have you gone to testify in any state
hearings I know we've got some coming up
in California and I don't know if you've
been involved because I just feel like I
would love to sit there and have this
lobbyist say this thing and that's just
like come back with all of these
arguments and have you in to testify or
you have you considered doing that i I
can't insert myself into the story in
that way just as a journalist and keep
covering it obviously like motherboard
has decided to have a stand on this and
the stand is that right sure a pair
would be a good thing for our consumers
both our readers and consumers at large
and so we're reporting the facts on
what's happening and I think in this
case the facts stack up very strongly on
one side and the arguments against it
are sort of pretty pretty bad on the
other and I kind of look at it almost as
I mean it's not the same thing but
almost similar to climate change where
there are a lot of people out there who
report the news and it's sort of like
they report both sides of it and you
know I want to be fair to the
manufacturers I want to give them the
chance to say what what they believe but
I'm also not going to pretend that this
is an issue that
we don't have a point of view on because
our point of view is that rights or
repair would be good for consumers and
that manufacturers have been a pretty
anti-consumer throughout this whole
process and that yeah we're going to
support that legislation and we're going
to report how they are crushing it on a
state level yeah we need those facts to
support us when we're in the room with
them and when we're you know asking
people to come in and share their repair
stories and to testify like what's gonna
happen in California
yeah well this story should be really
helpful we'll go so we are going to have
a kind of visit to the Capitol on April
8th where we're gonna have a bunch of
our friends come up and visit
legislators if you're in California you
want to come to Sacramento you're
welcome to join us we're gonna be
talking with people but I think when the
security argument comes up this this
Asus story that Kem broke is going to be
I think really helpful because it shows
that they are not they're not
representing the problem in good faith I
mean if they can't see I mean monkeys
and their rights repair story like I
didn't even think of the right to repair
aspect of that until you guys posted a
blog post about it but but you're
absolutely right I mean manufacturer
saying hey trust us and at the same time
they're getting active left and right
and they're actively installing viruses
and in some cases and been saying still
trust us right well so as a consumer who
has my computer's had to auto update
sometimes should we be trusting
automatic updates from manufacturers yes
unfortunately there are a lot of I don't
I don't know how to put this but it's
like asus is the exception to the rule i
guess in this case and for the most part
you should be updating your computer
your you know your apps your iphone
whenever a new update is pushed because
largely software updates are used to
patch bugs and patch security holes in
software so we have something we call
the motherboard guide to not getting
hacked and one of our top piece of
advice is patch patch patch update
update update
and it's very unfortunate that you know
Asus was co-opted here but at the same
time companies are hacked all the time
and bugs are found all the time whereas
a supply chain attack like this is super
rare in this case it was like pretty
targeted and the average person should
definitely update their software so that
they're able to close those zero days
and those vulnerabilities and maybe
don't come in a cinched keeps it
automatic updates on if I had maysa I'd
be a little bit terrified
I would also if you have an asus
computer and you're watching this or
listening to this absolutely get
antivirus and run it because it's very
possible likely that they've been you've
been and unfortunately the malware is
dormant and muster one of these IP
addresses we don't think it's doing
active harm but if there basically is a
backdoor in your in your system that you
need antivirus to remove well and last I
checked you know Asus may have fixed
this in the last 24 hours it's a really
bad hack but last we checked this you
know this vulnerability was not fixed so
you should definitely run antivirus
software he should definitely see if
you've been affected and yeah I wouldn't
update your Asus computer right now
would be very worried about that yeah
well what extraordinary set of stories
and one week from a tiny publication you
guys are knocking it out of the park
you're definitely punching above your
weight class I mean both of these
stories are I mean you're taking two of
the largest computer manufacturer in the
world to their core I'm clearly I think
you've got probably both of these
companies running in fire drills and
response to to your work and then
getting presidential candidates in on
this thing like where and it's hard hope
so yeah it's a definitely hard to make
repair sexy but I think that we're doing
I think we're doing a good job I think
it's happening more than any other issue
that we report on rights repairs very
easy to explain and it's something that
affects you know everyone who's bought
anything ever so it's a it's an easy
thing to explain to lawmakers is an
easiest thing to explain to to consumers
and I think it's just it's it's
important and testable thanks so much
Jason I appreciate you joining us this
is this is incredible I just cannot
believe that ASIS let their root keys I
mean and I mean this could be the
Russian government that did it right but
even so we expect these are the most
like issues is is inventing the
technology that runs the Russian
government they automail to protect
themselves against them so coming up
soon we have we got right repair bills
in 20 states now California is the 20th
state we've had right repair introduced
in California it's Assemblywoman susan
tal month is eggman from stockton who is
fantastic if you're from Stockton the
area you should absolutely call her and
thank her and future calls I know we've
been reaching out to legislators and
some have been interested to come on the
show and talk with us so in future
episodes hopefully we'll be able to get
some state reps on the line to directly
hear from them and in the meantime
please head over to repair org you can
type in your state that repaired org to
get specific information on how to get
involved but right now especially with
California ramping up calling all
Californians out there we made it really
easy on repaired org to call in write a
letter and talk to your legislators and
like we've heard from some of the people
that been on the show in the past
legislators are they want to hear they
want to hear from you and they're easier
to their people they're easier to talk
to them you think and with all this
ramping up the more letters and the more
just repair stories on how this impacts
your life the more support that we have
so please check out and we built this
really cool phone call widget where you
can go over here and to California
repaired org or Illinois that repair
that or punch in your phone number and
your postal code and we will actually
call your cell phone and connect you
directly to your reps it will call one
office you talk with them and say hey I
support the rate to repair bill hit
pound it hangs up on them and calls the
next one and you don't have to know who
they are or what their phone numbers are
we make it really easy for you I have
motion for you Kyle before before we
hang up here
what I hear that Minnesota may be moving
toward a floor votes you have any idea
when that might be and what should I be
looking for there this is very
interesting Minnesota is the the first
state that we passed out a two
committee hearings we made that what
they call the Policy Committee which is
which is the initial a committee it was
looking at more from a policy
perspective than we made it through the
the leadership committee and so now the
next step is a floor vote in the
assembly in Minnesota I don't know the
exact timing but it's very possible it
could be in the next few weeks so
certainly something if you're in
Minnesota
call your reps it doesn't matter as long
your rep in the assembly on either side
of the aisle specifically what we have
heard in Minnesota is that the
Republicans are more opposed to write
your parent Minnesota where the DFL
party is is in favor of it so if you if
you know any Republicans we need we
really I mean there's this is not a
partisan issue so we need to get some
Republicans to break with their
leadership and join us join us on the
right side of history
all right so I know exactly when the
vote will happen but it could be could
be very soon we have never gotten an up
or down floor vote on right to repair
ever and so this is Minnesota has the
opportunity to make history right well
thanks for coming on and spending time
with us and thanks for everybody who's
been in the Commons having some good
chatter and everything in there and if
you like repair radio and you wants to
continue please leave a rating for us in
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help get the word out and it will be and
instead of rust to continue doing this
instead of doing care dents I have a
special sneak peek for all of you for
sticking with us all the way to the end
we are about to release our ear pods to
tear down and I have here are
disassembled air pods - so you're going
to find out what's new and different and
exciting about this and possibly how
flammable they are and subscribe to the
I fix it youtube channel as well because
with the air pads we've also got ipad
tear downs and a lot of stuff coming up
so if you're into right to repair it and
all the tech things follow along and
we'll see you all next time our podcast
is called cyber the next episode is all
about the asus hack we have Kim's that
are on it'll be out on Monday it's
called cyber all caps
cyber that's it we'll put links in all
the descriptions everywhere and yeah
thanks cool thank you