very excited to have a special guest
today David Pogue has joined us yeah
so I have been a big fan of yours for a
long time you are I mean one of the
godfathers of max journalism well I mean
I'm enjoying this podcast already all
the way back in the day so I grew up
reading macro magazine oh yeah and I
mean I mean just the cell and David Polk
and Dan Marin and all you guys like back
in the day I mean as I have been an
apple guy since the underdog days since
me and you were - yeah for sure
what was your first Mac I got a in fact
this is what got me into technology in
the first place that was a music major
in college and Apple had this genius
programmer they were selling Mac's to
college students at half-price okay and
the reason that's genius is because that
then you get hooked on one platform and
you stay with it the rest of your life
which is what happened to me so I was
about to graduate and I'm like mmm am I
ever going to get a computer and never
had a computer and like I better take
advantage of this deal so it was a Mac
the original Mac the original one - okay
yep yep I heard people were doing real
upgrades them I did a ram upgrade on
that thing so yeah I moved to New York -
I was a Broadway conductor in my
original career musician and I so
remember I got this I found this guy who
would bring one megabyte chip to you one
megabyte of RAM and he met me in the
lobby of my building he was literally
wearing a trench coat is $400 it was
like all right just take him here just
take it
like he's like a drug deal and this is
those weren't available on the open burn
you know well not from Apple nothing
yeah this is a third parties go world of
surreptitious upgrade exactly it has not
stopped and now I mean inch engine
they're doing flash memory upgrades on
iPhones where they're desoldering the
the NAND flash you know so if you have a
64 gig iPhone people people here say can
you upgrade it and I say no you can't
bench engine you can't hit though hey
guys have you been yeah and I mean the
tooling that they use I mean they use
it's a lot of same machinery that they
make the phones with so it's like a BGA
rework machine for the ball grid array
chips 2d solder and solder around the
process oh wow
I mean you can buy enough parts like on
the markets and washing day to build an
iPhone if you want and I'm talking not
I'm talking like you buy a PCB and you
buy you know individual capacitors and
you saw there all of them onto the Wow
what if you'd save money in the end
maybe that the part that you cannot buy
that has to come from an iPhone this the
a10 processor oh of course of course so
that's the so you're you're in your
career you've done everything from from
being a musical conductor to Macworld
columnist and now you're doing broadcast
media you've been an author of all the
missing manual books in between what
have you enjoyed kind of that constant
evolution there usually look back you're
like man if I could just go work at
Macworld again I'll have you sell me
something I do feel like I wasted 10
years doing the musical theater thing I
do I mean I really was gonna be the next
great Broadway conductor girl composer I
mean my goal was to write shows and I
wrote a show a year in college I mean
all the way back to middle school I was
writing musicals and then like I got to
New York to the Broadway thing and I
found out that it's you know Varrick but
yeah and no one's gonna invest 20
million dollars on a total unknown you
know so it was all the old guard it was
Andrew Lloyd Webber and Stephen Sondheim
all these famous composers then they
were doing a lot of revivals so I kind
of spun my wheels for 10 years writing
shows staging readings making recordings
sending scripts around to producers and
how are you paying for rent I was
playing piano for voice lessons okay and
here's where it gets relevant I was the
office manager for the New York Mac
users group okay so it was a big this is
a paid position this is a $10 an hour
okay yeah yeah I got our mail I paid our
bills manage the schedule answer all the
correspondence but that's actually you
know so there I was with my newly
upgraded one megabyte Mac that homemade
fat Mac and and working for the user
group and the the connection a lot of
people want to know how do you get from
being a you know a conductor to a tech
guy and the connection is that there was
this music software that's still around
today called finale it's kind of like
sheet music software kind of like the
Microsoft Word and I wanted this
badly but it was $1,000 back then for a
floppy disk and so the editor of our
newsletter hilariously called the Mack
Street Journal said you know what you
should do you should write to the
company and tell them you're a reviewer
okay and they'll send you a free copy I
did that but it's that easy and I wrote
a review you know so that's the gateway
drug in detector that was it yep and I
mean macro magazine with such a force
back in the day and the Mac will expose
you know yeah and Steve Jobs you get up
at Macworld Expo and that was the
introduction of the next big thing and
went to every one of those Boston yep
twice a year yeah so I mean that was
that was really I mean for me I was in
high school and I'm kind of watching the
world and saying what do I want to be
when I grow up and and seeing Apple kind
of moved from being you know this fringe
niche where we were always super
defensive performers we're saying Apple
is strong in education even though it's
still relevant that's right oh man all
those same arguments yeah and and
fast-forward 30 years yeah now they're
the 800-pound gorilla yeah so I think
it's interesting as you went through
like you served more on the user side
and training people and you started
reading the missing manual series and
you know became a best-selling author in
that regard why was the manual missing
well so that goes like this so first I
started writing the dummies books I
wrote max for dummies yeah the iMac for
dummies more max for dummies max for
teachers I wrote seven of the dummies
books and that came about because
actually the machine sir now there's
probably 1,800 different topics and
dummies but at the time there was only
one it was never supposed to be a series
it was one book it was dos for dummies
okay Dan goukan genius and the way he
pulled off that book is he took an
us-versus-them stance which perpetuates
to this day a new I think which is to
say he said you're not stupid if you
don't understand your computer they want
you to feel stupid
the the inteligencia of geeks and so he
wrote this book then they
call it RAM but that's just to
intimidate you it's just memory you know
like okay and it was funny and it was
yellow and you know the the major
bookstores Barnes Noble they wouldn't
stop Doss for dummies because they said
we're not gonna stock a book that
insults the reader Oh fascinating
yeah and so it was all independent
bookstores and it became a mega mega hit
millions and millions of copies and then
they thought okay let's do one more
let's do a companion book called max for
dummies okay and that's variety and I
was ready for Macworld yeah and they
called the editor and said it's a sister
company
IBG both side yeah and they said you
know do you have anyone who can write
funny and so they recommended me and so
I did that one I don't know any feedback
although I did hear so I exhausted my
expertise I did magic for dummies Metrix
opera for dummies not the browser the
art form classical music for dummies and
then I was kind of like out of expertise
so what was it gonna do I started my own
series to compete with them and this is
where the missing manual idea came from
so it was 1999 I was at one of the
Macworld Expo
still trying to think of what the
concept would be and I'm like nobody
gives you manuals anymore I think then
late 90s yeah yeah and it was explained
to me why is because a the research says
nobody looks at them B this is a big one
as soon as they're done with software
done writing it and debugging it they
want to ship it but printing and binding
a manual takes another six weeks okay
they don't want to just sit on a profit
leg and it also you know the software
you get screenshots the software could
change yes huge problem huge problem for
me to this day I mean I have to redo
those damn books every single year you
know every year is a new Windows book a
new MacBook a new iPhone but the ones I
still do but anyway so I did here at one
point that in the early 2000s there was
some meeting at Apple where they're like
okay now what about the documentation
and somebody literally said let's just
let Pogue do it like they knew I would
write a missing manual about it I feel
like there's some parallel arc with us
then because we come in and we ran the
service we yes there is
if at some point Apple is said like why
are we bothering writing the service
manual because I fix it's gonna do it
anyway yeah I'm surely gonna bet
conversation so we've had these crazy
moments in our service manuals where we
miss something that ends up being
important with the with the 15-inch
MacBook Pros there is a the Wi-Fi card
it turns out you can put the Wi-Fi card
in upside down oh it's it's it's it's
you know it mirror image and if you put
it in upside down it fries the computer
oh nice
and we didn't know that because we never
did that we never screwed up and did it
I'm case if you've had any moments like
that where there's things that you just
didn't know that you fundamentally
missed that mislead people um you know
nothing serious
of course there's always mistakes and
typos try as we might nice thing about
O'Reilly who published the missing
manuals is that they they believe in
publishing small batches of computer
books so there were constantly pinging
me and saying we're reprinting we're
reprinting we're reprinting and every
one of those was an opportunity for me
to fix things I'll tell you what what I
did do at one point though the other
book I did on the Mac was a huge sixteen
hundred page monster called Mac secrets
yeah that seems like that would be more
your style it's much more advanced yeah
exactly and it drove me crazy that
competitive books would take the cool
tips and tricks that my co-author and
Yale roommate Joe Shore had come up with
and discovered and they were ripping us
off and they were printing it in their
own tips and tricks' books so one year I
think this is the first time I ever
revealed this to the public one year Joe
and I put in a bogus tip it was a
sidebar and it was about how the secret
you know key combination will bring up
the rabbit know and there was no rabbit
there wasn't but we and it was just
complicated enough that the payoff
wasn't enough that a reader we actually
try it okay because more like ha how
funny turn the page okay and sure enough
it appeared in other books even though
it was completely baloney you think if
you got
you at least go through the process you
would think so we planted sort of a
copycat virus in our book that's
fantastic this is a thrilling tale of a
computer virus destroying the file of
1893 okay so this I remember reading
this in high school and it was the first
cyber thriller I ever read one of the
first cyber thrill is ever
yeah and you were a little bit less
fanciful in this yeah this is a more
realistic cyber attack and the hilarious
thing is that I mean first of all in 99
I mean I was in my 20s you know there's
like these phrases in there that are
hilarious they like there in the corner
was the seething throbbing power of a
Mac SE you know like exactly where
Stevenson has a dragon but the the story
concerns this fanciful product that that
didn't exist in 1983 which is speech
recognition software and it's going to
change the world and I was right about
that so we have seriously but it took a
long time I mean we had Dragon Dictation
to the 90s it never really worked yes
really in the last five years yes
finally become yeah III do you I use
naturallyspeaking right for a while in
the late 90s I had t know so divides
tenosynovitis which is a wrist ailment
kind of like carpal tunnel and so I
couldn't type and so so the hand doctor
said you should stop using your hands
I'm like dude I have two careers I play
the piano and I type in the computer you
got any others anyway so I the original
Mac version of that software was power
secretary $2,500
I spent for that software and those days
you had to separate words you had to
speak like that and so my girlfriend
would come home I'd be like hi honey how
was work oh sorry sorry sorry like but
anyway yeah so I can't believe you
the book using the voice dictation I did
not and here we've got you explaining
cryptography this is a double
transposition cipher you've got your
email I wonder like this almost this is
around the same time the Electronic
Frontier Foundation started yeah
probably was the day so this is like
imagining what is the future of and I
mean I think this is I mean when you
publish this the idea of a computer
virus was new a novel and terrified
that's right that's and of course all of
us look at this and like yeah I mean I
had no idea what I was never in any
fiction of any kind before and I had
works this summer for the eventually I
became friends with the people who made
that music software that family suffer
and I wound up writing their manuals for
versions two and three I wrote the new
manuals the original manuals were
terrible and so I spent a summer working
in the software company in Minnesota and
that's how I learned what it's like
inside a software company so that this
is set inside of that record and an
amount of being a New York Times notable
book of the year so who the hell knew
you know well I would so we become
obsessive about manuals I mean just
through the course of doing it right and
I in software to write our manuals we
actually spun off that software we have
a software company do Zuki that sells
our technical documentation software
that runs iFixit manufactures so that
they can that's how I Riley started you
know was writing writing documentation
for well for for things that didn't have
it maybe the missing manual series needs
mascots
yes maybe I did some animal books I did
Palm Pilot the ultimate guide at flying
squirrel yeah we we've helped them with
a number of their books but we've never
written their own good outfit so do you
ever like look back and say well maybe
you should have gotten stuck with
fiction no let's do for you financially
was this um you know it was uh it was
not anything you could live on but but
one really cool
is that I believe it was last see some
some hard drive company thought it would
be cool to bundle this book called hard
drive with every hard drive they sold so
they ordered 15,000 copies from the
publisher good yeah it was it was pretty
good so that was a that was a lucky
stroke yeah exactly yeah so yeah no I
and then I wrote another novel three or
four years ago for for middle schoolers
abbey Cornelia is one and only magical
power but that was my that was only the
second time I've ever been to and then
so I'm curious as you look at the arc of
Technology in history and I mean every
time you have to write a new missing
manual there's another operating system
that we have to learn and you have this
pace of innovation and you've kind of
specialized in explaining those
innovations to the everyman precisely
okay how does the ever main keep up oh
man you know people at I give a lot of
talks and people always ask me that and
you know for me it's a full-time job
keeping up and even I can you know so
it's it's more or less hopeless
I used to say read my column but I don't
write the that New York Times column
anymore already different different
couple of times it's you just can't I
mean you have to you know visit all the
websites and subscribe to all the
magazines and go to the conferences and
write nope nobody outside the business
is going to do that so the manufacturers
are on this treadmill where they're
releasing new gizmos all the time and
they have to because that's their their
profit that's the business model if they
don't release a new iPhone every year
the investors are going to get upset
yeah to what extent and we become
culpable as part of that kind of system
of this this is a hot question for you
this taps into that whole thing about
how are you defined by your phone
something I've thought about and studied
a lot about whenever I would review a
new iPhone or a new Samsung phone I
couldn't do right right if I if I said
is a good phone then the other camp
woody Visser ate me if I said it had
problems then that camp would eviscerate
me right and I became aware that people
literally define their self-worth by the
brand they buy we
is weird and doesn't happen that way
with breakfast cereals or I mean cars
maybe a little bit but but not so much
it's it's really just phones it's it's
really odd so we are a couple culpable
but it's because we are psychological
beings and it's the same it's the same
kind of thing how we identify with
sports teams I would say we're not the
ones playing the football game what do
we just happen to live in that city so
therefore we want them to win and you're
an idiot because you support the other
team it's it's a weird identification
thing that happens to support our
self-worth and this says I'm a fashion
has always been that way right yeah
exactly that symbol that you're showing
off that's right what I read your your
most recent New York Times column where
you were giving advice to parents on
planes and in in that column well it
seems like the consistent advice every
was giving to them was well have some
new shiny thing to show the kid every 30
minutes but they have some new toy and
and they're going to get distracted by
the next thing and that will get you
through a 12-hour flight that's right so
that feels like our world of technology
the some extent yeah it really does are
we is this fundamental of the human
psychology that we have to have a new
thing every 30 minutes or is this
something that we are training ourselves
in from an early age
I mean novelty is addictive
I mean novelty is especially in these
phones I mean we could talk about this
for hours but in the bigger picture
change in general is terrifying this is
why we don't do anything about climate
change or you know any of the other
things that are wrong is why we don't do
anything about repairing our phones I
mean this resistance to change is
everywhere because change is frightening
right so when it's a change that we
control like we decide to get a new
phone that is a change that is in our
control rather than out of our control
so it feels good I don't know if you've
ever studied depression but one of the
characteristics of depression is it is
the feeling that you can't do anything
about your situation and as soon as you
do little things like I'm gonna join a
book club I'm gonna see yeah some agency
that's exactly right
then you start to feel better even if
it's the tiniest things and I feel like
that's why we go see
horror movies by the way yes they are
terrifying but it was our decision to go
we can leave at any time
controlling the change controlling the
fear is within our control interesting
and when we do that it's more handle so
as we are inflicting new technology upon
ourselves is that I mean is it is that
is there some like internal you know
chemical process where the new thing
like we're kind of forcing ourselves on
change there's that kind of dopamine
rush from I was just gonna say opening
the new thing it's a dopamine spurt for
sure it's it's Christmas morning it's
your birthday no Marie Kondo is sweeping
the world and I mean is absolutely
fascinating to see she talks about like
subtly a lot a few things that you have
that spark joy and try to purge
everything else what is it about our
culture that has brought like the
justice deluge of stuff we seem to
constantly be collecting all this stuff
yeah it's it's related you know it's the
consumer society it's we're only now
sort of starting to realize the problems
with this basis of economy this basis of
psychology it is true and I'm I'm
thrilled that there is now a movement to
get rid of stuff we've had three garage
I have three kids two of them are now
out of the house so we're slowly purging
that three garage sales in three years
and man it is even more satisfying to
get rid of stuff and to get stuff let me
tell you what and I think this is is
we've gone from I mean I'm just looking
at the archive of history was 75 years
and scarcity has been imposed on you
society all the way up until the 1950s
there was always some reason there just
wasn't enough I mean even clothing was
incredibly expensive because there's so
time-consuming to make yeah and after we
came out of World War two and now if
then you had plastic it became very
inexpensive to make things and so like
the last the loss of scarcity of
physical objects has then led to the
ballooning of all the stuff that we have
right and I'm constantly asking how can
we go back to a world where we have less
and it's going to take self-control now
right because scarcity is not imposing
that control on us right great I you
know I've been thinking so much about
this
because I've just signed a book deal
with Simon & Schuster to write a book
that is related to climate change and if
you really look at the projections for
what's going to happen we're talking
about obviously losing livable area
partly yeah all the coastal cities will
lose land area so in effect and then you
know we think about the United States
because we're Americans but in other
countries like Bangladesh is you know
they're the Netherlands are below sea
level countries below though like
there's some countries that are going to
be totally drowned and in effect what
this will do and of course it'll change
the growing seasons it will change where
you can grow crops because climate
change any of the better term is
actually climate chaos because
everything affects everything else and
so everyone's like oh it's it's a cold
litter that's not global warming well
you idiot that's the point right
increased intensity of everything so
more floods followed by more droughts
which is sort of counterintuitive wait I
thought it's gonna be flooding well it's
gonna be flooding Anders hey bot my
bottom line is fewer areas where you can
grow food fewer areas where you can live
it's going to push people into a smaller
area on a global scale and we are really
going to we're going to have to do with
fewer objects in our lives there won't
be the ability to keep producing and to
keep buying and to keep owning the
priorities will have to shift well the
carbon impact of the things that we make
actually it's 500 pounds of co2 per
iPhone manufa
so you think about you like it's this
it's it's so lightweight right well as
500 has a co2 going back to my princess
rotary honey well and that's where I
wonder to what extent we in the media
are a little bit culpable assisting
these manufacturers to write to sell
these objects to people were up we're
all on this on this constant needing
more and more and more right in I mean
there's some mild good news which is
that I've always theorized that any new
invention goes through a rapid upgrade
cycle at the beginning of the inventions
life and then settles down into its
ultimate incarnation and then you don't
never buy it every day the manufacturers
got smart this time I've built
clock into them I know and then you have
to do it yeah well you're doing
something about that but like you don't
you don't buy a new refrigerator right
because it's it is what it is it's there
and now people are not buying a new
phone every two years these words ending
by weight 3 yeah well I we are going to
shift the conversation and bring in a
friend of I fix it and a friend of the
community who is running a recycler in
Minnesota who's dealing with all these
and so she is the one who gets all of
our stuff when we're done with it so I
just wanna say thank you very much for
coming it's been it's been awesome to to
you know I get to show you around I fix
it a little bit because I think we've
been in revolving orbits we have give me
random missing manual we've been writing
the missing service manual oh yeah well
great too great to hang out with you and
it's me finally thank you very much
doing us yeah my pleasure
fishy okay we're gonna shift over and we
have Amanda Lagrange on the way Amanda
runs techn up in in the the great state
of Minnesota and I got to visit tech
dump a few years ago was was incredibly
impressed by her operation of the kind
of innovation that they're bringing to
all of your old stuff so Amanda thanks
so much for joining us thanks for having
me good to see you
so all let me give you my kind of
bird's-eye view of tech dump and then
you can tell me how accurate this is
okay so everybody all around the the
Twin Cities area when they're done with
their stuff they donate it somewhere and
then it goes into a big warehouse and
Amanda has these teams of incredibly
smart people that are like sifting
through things transfer out what is the
stuff that is going to get shredded and
was the stuff that maybe we can fix and
resell it's a fair summary that's a
wonderful summary so give me what kind
of volume of material do you process
yeah so last year we celebrated our 25
millionth pound process that's our
founding gosh and so yeah if we see a
few electronics and one of the other
pieces that's really unique to our model
is that beyond our environmental mission
we're also focused and work readiness
training so we're working with
individuals that have come out of incur
sir
or in recovery from addiction and so
there's just amazing skills that can be
learned within this wonderful world of
recycling and refurbishing so give me a
sense when you're someone around I saw I
mean I'm seeing laptops I'm seeing
servers what kind of material are you
getting in there our easiest explanation
is its anything with a cord cable or
battery that's not a home appliance and
so with that obviously comes things that
we think of like computers lately is we
get more and more into the Internet of
Things we're seeing kids toys that look
like stuffed animals and lo and behold
there's a computer in that belly and so
thankfully that mom chose to come in
recycle it with us so it's it's amazing
the variety but it feels like every day
there's something that comes in that
you're like huh I haven't seen that
before and as we'll talk about I know
but it makes repairing these things
really difficult when you see literally
thousands of different electronics every
day and yet all that weight was from
mostly compact like smaller electronics
cuz you're not including all of these
massive home appliances all these smart
fridges and all this other stuff so this
just shows where the weight does come
from it comes yeah what's all the
biggest thing you will ever get I mean
rear projection TVs are one thing that
come to mind so the bow he missed
gigantic things that are normally in
somebody's basement and then they're
moving and they finally are getting rid
of it that's probably the largest thing
I can think of and those can wait a
couple hundred pounds so they're talking
with David we're kind of you know
thinking a little bit about society and
how we have ended up with with with all
this stuff for their lives as someone
who's seeing to the clean up what's your
take on on the amount of things that
people have nowadays well should I show
you my iPhone 5s that I'm still using
the way my team feels very embarrassed
by but I just
it still works okay exactly
it's there's just so much stuff and I
think too it's been a few years
thankfully since this deal was about but
for a long time you got a free printer
when you bought a computer and people
would come and drop off for recycling
and bring the printer still
you in the box with this like a look of
shame of like oh dear please don't shame
me for the fact I never opened this so
that the consumption is just seen but a
lot of it came from us as consumers but
a lot of it also came from just the
system that was built and it's the same
system that you're just speaking on and
that we just constantly new me that
latest and greatest piece of technology
the other piece that I think has really
been something that I feel like I see
from my seat but maybe the rest of the
community doesn't it's how emotionally
attached we get to our electronics and
so because of that attachment we hold on
to things for a lot longer than we would
ever use them and specially last year I
highly recycled a math book that I had
had during college like why could I not
recycle it earlier there is nothing left
on it data wise but all I could think of
was like beautiful College memories and
my views and all of it and like every
day I come to tech dump clearly it's not
a convenient thing I couldn't recycled
it but it's just this hard piece around
letting go of these devices that have
become such a part of our everyday life
right well and that's something that we
try to get the message out though
sometimes the most environmentally
friendly thing that you can do is to
give away or sell the stuff that you
already have and do it aggressively soon
well it still has value and somebody
else can use it so let's say we give a
relatively new MacBook to tech top what
would happen yeah coming to our doors
and go to our reuse technician team
which now is the group of about a 25
amazing humans and the work on that
technology and they'll go through a
process of testing data wiping and then
preparing it for sale sometimes that's
through online channels sometimes it's
through our retail store which is now
known as tech discounts and go figure
people didn't want to shop for
electronics at a place called tech dump
so detective counts but it's amazing to
see that often it's a small business
owner that's adding employees to their
headcount or maybe it's a kid that has
technology in the classroom but their
parents at home don't want them to use
their brand-new computer that they
bought somewhere else but they're okay
buying refurbished
so there's just there's amazing
technology that we can get back out into
the community for the people that don't
want brand-new and trust me there are
plenty of people that will still keep
buying brand-new from Apple or whatever
manufactured but there's room for both
markets yeah I think there's a lot of
cultural shift that needs to happen the
way that we think about the secondhand
goods you know going back to the Marie
Kondo stuff you know everybody goes
there's lots of clothing swaps I run one
in our community very successful yeah
it's going really well Marie Kondo is a
huge help to that for the last minute
well changing people's perspectives on
you know used products you know we don't
mind buying a used car we don't like
clothing swapping with their girlfriends
or whatever but for some reason like a
use electronics or a refurbished device
I I hear a lot of coops Inc you know
just doesn't work as well I don't really
know but that's untrue it's not any
anymore any it's just as good as
something that you would buy new and it
saves you a lot of money I think just
needing to change people's perspectives
making it more available just more
because like when you walk into a
goodwill and you go to the electronics
section it's a little scary if there's
like you just you don't know if you're
gonna walk out with something that turns
on but I think you know if you got
something that's coming out of recycling
facility with people that are
experienced in refurbishing these things
and having a storefront for people in
the community every community needs one
of those because there are enough
electronics to put you know use
electronics to put out there certainly
and it's part of why we now have a
one-year warranty and a retail store
because we want to break down this
misconception that it's not quality the
stuff is quality and in some cases our
QA process might even be more thorough
than a manufacturers at the point of
building something new but it is
definitely that that free and shows that
mindSHIFT within our community but I
have found that when someone saves that
much money buying a second-hand on
electronics um that it's hard for them
to go back to buying news there's hope
let's switch to talking about right to
repair for a little bit Amanda you
better engage in Rachel Parramatta so
since the very beginning tell us what
your why are you involved yeah well
those wonderful members of my crew that
are working
and refurbishing laptops or flat panel
TVs or desktops or whatever the item our
item is right now they're harvesting
parts from other items that have come in
which is really difficult to scale it
involves having just the right part
already in-house if we don't make its
available on eBay
maybe it's available for my fix it but
it's really limiting the amount of stuff
we can repair last year flat panel TV
reach that came in for recycling was up
60% it's clear that the stuff was not
built to last but often our team has a
difficult time repairing those flat
panel TVs because the cost of the parts
is prohibitive or there's not the manual
that we need to be able to repair it so
really it's about our ability to keep
scaling our organization which for us
has both that environmental mission and
also the job training side and then on
getting out of fordable technology back
into our community it's something that
is really important so availability of
parts and resources and impacts you the
same ways it does a lot of the fairtex
that we have on the show so it's seems
like the same thing but how do you yeah
see right to repair impacting just your
business as a whole because you're not
the average consumer just the you know
the repair Pro with a shop how does it
how's it going to impact your operations
you know if and when it passes yeah the
ability for a team to go source those
parts so I think last week I was dealing
with a car issue and I could go to my
favorite independent repair shop Thank
You Dale feste in Hopkins Minnesota and
they could get the part that they needed
and they could fix it and it all could
happen in the same day and it was a
beautiful experience we actually just
act about great shoe repair on the
electronic side was sitting in their
Lobby
but we don't have that ability to do it
instead our team is like oh darn if we
could just get this laptop screen we
could repair this laptop and be able to
sell it into the community and support
that you take the funding and invest it
into our job training program so the
other piece is it's sort of a funny
question sometimes when people are like
why are you so outspoken about right to
repair if people repaired all their
stuff wouldn't put you out of business
and I wouldn't change
that day I love that to happen like we
could certainly go find a different
business model but we are so far away
from running out of electronics it's the
fastest-growing waste stream in the
world there's not a concern from my seat
about if people start repairing their
own stuff or that they can more easily
access independent repair we're still
going to see this stuff coming through
our doors and so because of that we have
an obligation to our community we have
an obligation to my three and a half
year old niece who's going to grow up in
this world we need to be protecting our
materials and creating a world that we
can all live in Minnesota is one of the
first states that we started doing rate
repair legislation and we've been how
long has it been as a four five I think
it was 2014 yeah so you're making so
much momentum it's happening so fast and
we're like we like I mean because we've
had Rachel Perry introduced in Minnesota
and I administer that well four times
now and this is gonna be the fifth year
what's it what's it that rollercoaster
been like for you well I'm learning a
lot about perseverance I've also learned
that my education of full house rock on
how a bill becomes a law might have
simplified things okay if I it's also
somewhat humorous when individuals that
have been involved in different product
stewardship programs here in the state
of Minnesota say five years oh that's
not very long and I think okay
apparently I still have someone who can
you learn about perseverance fight it
continues to feel like this like the
teeny tiny tech dumps which we're not
that teeny tiny but we are in compared
to Apple and we are in comparison to the
Consumer Electronics Association and
just these behemoths organizations and
so sometimes it feels a little humbling
of like goodness like they really know
how to make a legal argument but at the
same time we know how to talk about our
actual day to day experience and there's
so many myths that get thrown out
and I think that I can tell that it's
been five years of involvement because
at the hearing last week I had to like
hold on to my chair rather than just
like going down and trying to testify
again if you're like everything they
just said was bogus it's like don't
believe that you thought tell me a
little bit more about that hearing we're
trying to you know smote evade people to
talk to their state reps just share
their repair stories because we all have
them and the more stories that get
shared more you know important it is to
mean to everybody in the value there
what was a hearing like what's what's it
like talking with your state reps and
being a part of that process
well one of the most beautiful parts
attacking with my state rep or any state
rep is realizing that they're just a
normal person so for as intimidating as
it may have seemed early on to talk with
them or maybe for an individual watching
them when they think about calling their
state rep they may feel intimidated
they're just another human like any of
us and I think the thing that's really
exciting is that almost every person has
had some sort of repair experience and
so they can really relate to the fact of
like man it's hard to get your screen
repaired or it's insane that you would
have such an expensive repair for a flat
panel TV like that just doesn't make any
sense so there's a lot of
representatives specifically at last
week's Commerce hearing but they share
their own repair stories which most of
them shared a frustrating story with the
current system but one of the other
pieces that really popped up and I think
that this is very true to like Minnesota
roots as sort of this can-do like well
why would we need to go somewhere else
when we could prepare our own stuff um
there's just a really great and I'm
originally from Indiana so I get to
observe this as an outsider but it's
this really beautiful um perspective of
like we've got the resources we need we
just need the system to get to get out
of the way and then of course there's
still the trade associations and very
fancy lobbyists that are there and last
week Philippi threw out an argument but
I thought was unique I haven't heard
another and then the other four other
four or five rounds what I was a things
like that
part of why Minnesota shouldn't pass
this legislation is that because so many
other states have drafted it and not
passed it it just didn't make sense for
us to pass it and rather soda and I'm
not doing it yeah exactly this is the
worst logic and if anything I feel like
makes Minnesotans feel like oh no will
show you and pass this before anybody
else because you can put together a
fancy legal argument or whatever but
really when the people are listening
they're gonna and and other people are
gonna relate to those real stories and
that's just silly excuses are gonna come
out of nowhere when you're combating
like what people are going through in
their daily life that's just I think
that shows too getting cocky they know
the beat yeah four years in a row and
they're saying yeah here's no big deal
so what's an early about this last
hearing I know it's passed through two
committees and times we've gotten so far
right demo saw yeah yep so now we're at
a point of meeting a House vote which
means that ideally all Minnesotans that
care about rights for repair would call
their state representatives and ideally
call and that email like sent letters
calling does continue to be the most
impactful stuff people can take but
letting their representatives know that
we want to have a House vote on this so
that's the next step and there's a lot
going on in Minnesota I think there's a
lot going on in all state legislatures
this session but specifically letting
representatives know that this is still
a really big issue and it has an
environmental impact as a job creation
impact it has a digital to find impact
there's so many elements to this bill
and I really believe that when voters
call and talk to their representatives
that they listen and so that's what we
all need to do I know on the repaired
org site we made it really easy just to
call in there yeah I look for you and
your and you're good to go so you don't
even have some mother so that repaired
our ger or good not repair another
whatever state you're in we've got we've
got the propped up make it really easy
to reach out no going back to like what
David was saying about how this is like
we can kind of control this change in a
sense so while manufacturers make it you
know push us in to upgrades and make it
difficult for us to repair these things
if we don't have to upgrade these things
we don't have to buy this
animal that also has you know an
electronic orchid and to make those
kinds of choices so this is definitely a
problem of the people that the people
can solve and we always say it's a
bipartisan issue they're you know
they're just there are so many issues
that are you know state Reps have to
deal with it like these personal stories
are what makes all the other you know
legal mumbo-jumbo just seem less
important I think the personal stories
for all that important what's been I
mean the thing that I think is hard to
convey unless you've been in an
electronics recyclers just how many
different things come in every day like
if you got 10 laptops in today are they
going to be 10 different models a laptop
yeah chances are that none of them would
match and so that's the the real
challenge and I think you know when
Apple fights against rate to repair all
of their arguments have to do with their
products and they say we all really care
if you pass it for everybody else's but
the problem is the diversity of products
that are in the market that supersedes
any one manufacturer what any given
company is doing maybe isn't that bad
but then you add it all together in the
hole and you've this incredible mosaic
patchwork of thousands of kinds of
things without a system for dealing with
that they want to protect their own you
know intellectual property whatever but
at the cost of every single other
electronic that needs to be fixed over
and that's why you although they have
all this weight it's just they're not
there to you know stop everybody it's
just their third there just to protect
their specific device they're not there
for all everything else oh good no go
ahead
there's one other piece as a recycler
that I think that we see a little
differently than maybe a typical repair
shop and that's when we are doing manual
disassembly because there is no market
left so let's say it's a Windows 95
computer that came in we have to take it
apart and if we can't take it apart the
only option is for it to go through a
shredding process and then in that
shredding process you're losing some of
the ability to reclaim if you think of
like a piece of paper you could only
tear it so many times and so um
when it's hard to come up with an
example other than our friends at Apple
but when you think of like a desktop
computer that comes in that's needing
recycling it can take like 40 minutes to
take apart with the device versus maybe
like a Dell that comes in and it takes
four minutes and so proprietary screws
if you don't have the right screwdriver
and you can't take something apart then
the only option is shredding and so
there's this piece of even if it's not
repair there's still a way to recycle in
a more environmentally friendly way as
well so I just wanted to add that in
there on the recycle side that might be
a little bit of a different angle than
any kind of repair shops right well you
have to give information that consistent
format from all manufacturers you can't
take the time to go and look up a
process quickly and you want to improve
the recycling process you need to know
how to disassemble these electronics to
come up with the system that works
better but you know recycling is a tough
process for these electrons because it
just we don't know there's not one easy
way to get into everything availability
of information right one of the
arguments that the manufacturers keep
making is they say well well look why
don't you just get authorized your local
repair shop you're fixing Samsung phones
why don't you just get to get certified
with Samsung what will it look like for
you let's say it was possible to get
authorized by Samsung or Toshiba would
that be helpful you we can pursue it
I mean I'll admit that maybe I'm getting
a little jaded after five years but it's
just so unlikely of anybody getting
approved that it doesn't it doesn't feel
like a scenario but and where I'm
registered refurbisher we're a third
party certified for recycling process
like we believe in in these
certifications but it just it feels like
a band-aid I guess is a way of putting
it or rather than truly what the the
system needs to to function and them in
the best way possible
for the community so let's say I wave my
magic wand and all of a sudden there is
a process for you to go through with
every manufacturer you get authorized
how many different manufacturers oh my
gosh uh I mean for the variety of stuff
that we take in it feels like tens of
thousands but maybe I'm exaggerating but
I mean to even think about all the
private label electronics like me
clearly during this conversation we've
talked Apple and Samsung we even talked
about our dear friends down the road in
Minnesota at best buy me there now a
mandolin or Target and items that
they're creating under their private
labels I mean there's there's just so
much stuff and if you waste and we know
anyways truly is the fastest growing
waster in the world is just it's going
to be exponential and and would be
impossible to keep up with all of them I
do I do want to say that progress would
still be good though like I would still
be excited to see something but but the
scale makes it makes it challenging yeah
and that's why new do you want this one
universal framework yeah California we
have the bureau of appliances
electronics repair and repair shops
register and they pay I think $50 to the
state to register and then the state is
is managing that and I think you know
some program like that where you
register once rather than having to
register a hundred times maybe would be
better but the manufacturers haven't
seemed interested in that they just want
to completely maintain control over over
there brother
yeah so yeah another question for you
Apple has said that you know they're
really good at recycling their own
products and to the point where they
have made these fancy robots they made
Liam and Daisy like your electronics
recycler uh-huh how good a job you think
is is that how it works you just hold it
and then you just rip it off and you
just rip all the components apart it's
done that's exactly how it works well I
mean there are a few elements of this
one I really am amazed at the quality of
their marketing team I mean the
brilliant press coverage that they've
had that they figured out how to
disassemble the phone that they created
I think I had to walk a few laughs in
our warehouse the day that Liam was
first revealed because I was just so
frustrated
and I also I'm gonna have an accounting
background I love math and
mathematically speaking Liam and Daisy
aren't gonna cut it and so it's just so
it's so frustrating this to you but I
mean it it is really interesting as I
have shared with a couple of
universities as we're talking about
sustainability and specifically like
what's the role of business in
sustainability movements and their
perception of Apple is that they're very
environmentally friendly and sometimes
are referring to the commitment around
hundred percent recycled materials that
are and so I can just tell that that
there's a lot of power behind that
marketing force and so I mean it is
really impressive but it's also really
sad to watch the video where I think it
was a birthday when they released it and
Liam and Siri or like going back and
forth and then Liam takes apart the Siri
phone and and it's so sad and our team
of course is like a series working
there's no reason they should have just
manually taken apart that bolognaise
it's full wasteful exactly but we might
be the oddballs when we gonna do watch
those videos but I think you're right
with the marketing out you watch that
commercial and you think that there's a
million of these things out there
there's facilities full of them they're
taking part every time i upgrade or you
know it's turn in my phone for it to be
you know refurbished yeah to the
manufacturer it's like that's what's
happening and it's just like well now
there's only one I don't even think we
amazing Daisy's the only one that's
right yeah I think that I think they
took apart Liam I think my lambo yeah
but also the piece of like you would
imagine that the organisation that
designed and built the item would
already know how to take it back apart
and that we as a society wouldn't
celebrate that like years of research
went into creating this process like
they should be designing with the end of
life in mind so much about the user
experience with Apple and like the touch
and the feel and the things it's like
well what about the user experience like
when it breaks so this kind of even goes
back to robot dog toys and people
getting really attached their
electronics manufacturers they're all
about they're just not not focused on
end of life or
when life happens to these things when
you get a piece of sand under your
keyboard you know key when you you know
that just right they're not thinking
about it and I kind of put that
responsibility back on the manufacturers
if you're creating a product that you're
gonna introduce into the world and it's
going to create waste at some point I
mean you're you know responsible for at
least making it easier for people to you
know recycle that product and a lot of
times some companies do take back so
they do device take backs or you know
the trade and that kind of thing and
that helps but that's just a fraction
have any manufacturers ever reached out
to you and said hey can we help you
recycle our products never once there is
one manufacturer that reached out and
asked if we were receiving their
products for recycling because they were
supposed to just come straight back to
the manufacturer and so then I use an
opportunity to talk about right to
repair and circular economy principles
but it just yeah it doesn't seem like
the baby and the manufacturers really
invest the time at all to to figure out
how to improve on that element and some
of that needs to come from consumers to
say we want products that are built to
last that we can repair and then think
about end-of-life at the beginning if
you're gonna sell me a tablet you know
on Black Friday that it's only gonna
last me a year or two months then I want
to be able to ship it back to you for
free so you can recycle it because you
know if we don't have a tech dump or a
big recycling facility near us and some
people I mean there isn't even a Best
Buy nearby where you can drop a waste at
but I mean there needs to be like a
resource there so people can at least
get rid of the stuff and not feel guilty
holding on to it forever and coming back
and you know long after they need it to
to get to recycle it it's I get the
impression from Apple and other
manufacturers if they say well everybody
should just send their suspect us and
we'll take care of it do you think
that's viable I think they have an
economic incentive to recycle items that
likely could be refurbished and resold
and so on that piece you're saying they
might be wanting to shred things
prematurely to get them off the market
some people want something new of course
yeah
of course that's a
I mean it would sure be great to prove
that some really don't feel like they
would probably invite me into their
facility at this point I will admit that
the day after our Judiciary Committee my
beloved iphone5s that we've already
talked about started running a little
slower I was like no I think programs
are stuff and so I don't want to sound
negative about them but they're not as
great as they sound I mean there really
is that that economic incentive for
Apple or others to not necessarily
prioritize best use from an
environmental side and but I don't have
the systems to handle it I would think
they're like yeah sure you know we want
we're gonna tell people to send their
stuff back to us but we know that people
probably aren't gonna do it so we only
have to handle you know X amount of
returns but if everybody really did you
know turn their stuff in they'd be
totally overwhelmed and then and then
where does that stuff end up if they're
not partnering with you know tech them
for something similar to like do a
buyback or recycling program then what
do they do with it where are they
sending it and I don't maybe they
thought of that but it doesn't seem like
it oh man well this has been thank you
so much for your time we're getting
close and more time near yeah let's
let's talk through the legislation
that's pending right now so Minnesota is
active right now if you're listening you
absolutely should pick up the phone and
call your legislator right now there's
the opportunity to move particularly in
the house representatives in any day now
right yeah we're just waiting for the
houseboat yeah so if you're if you're
calling I mean ask tell your legislative
aute for it if you're talking with a
member of leadership and you can look up
the House leadership on the missile is
that your website ask them to schedule
the boat it is and then across the
country we have bills moving all over
the place we've got bills in in
Massachusetts in New York in New
Hampshire and Washington Oregon there's
going to be a California bill soon I
think we've got I mean there's a lot of
activity happening right now
yeah but Minnesota seems to be the one
that needs this for
yeah Minnesota is in the lead right now
so absolutely call tell your friends if
you know anybody if you have any family
members in minutes so they call them and
tell them to reach out to the reps all
it takes is five or ten calls to a
legislator for this issue to get on
their radar they'll do the research and
they'll realize that the corporation's
are trying to pull one over on any final
words of optimism Amanda what do you
think where are we going to be five
years from now in five years I think
we're going to have a beautiful scalable
repair parts and manual system I think
manufacturers will go on the record and
say you know we fought that for so long
we should have just looked at Patagonia
and realize that there is a market here
and we could continue to build their
business and all of this will be funny
and the world will be better in that
that's the optimism I'm choosing for
today at least you know what that's the
kind of you know world I want to leave
for my kids right yes okay you know
there was there was a dark period where
you couldn't fix things and we fix that
awesome thanks so much for joining us
Amanda thinks everybody yeah me too this
episode of repair radio we will be back
in two weeks yep and we'll post all the
audio on all the podcast apps and have
all the links in the descriptions
updated soon thanks thanks everybody