so so tell me what is the weather is
like out in Ohio mr. Michael pull very
very cold like stuck at a gas station
for the last call it was literally
negative 10 with a windchill that it
actually was negative 10 out but it was
late of 30 with the windchill so it's
still cold just not that cold how do you
survival technique so how do you cope I
travel a lot I got all those conferences
[Laughter]
that day I had a bunch of stuff in my
truck like I had coats and you know
boots and blue gloves leftover because I
knew it was gonna be bad but yeah tip
don't it was just a battery connection
like it was so cold the battery
connection was having issues he's always
a mom all these mechanic forums and they
were posting pictures just piles and
batteries of others on I had to get a
new battery last week for my Subaru I
just went started up and I was just like
no I just had battery problems with my
Honda and I was like this is like PTSD
like I don't want to do this again it
was just cold and it was old batteries
so well every time you need maybe it's a
higher in 30 bucks
well well welcome to repair radio
everybody um in the past this has been
called the right to repair livestream
podcast of magnificent things everything
but uh so now we're going with repair
radio and this is episode two and we're
gonna be streaming live every other
Thursday from our channel and then
posting the audio to all the podcast
apps everywhere so if you don't want to
watch this podcast purveyor of choice
this week we've got Louis rossmann and
Michael over dick and Nathan Proctor
from US PIRG on and we're gonna be
fighting about right to repair um you
want to give them a little intro and
what right to repairs about and I were
where were advocating like it's a wrench
repair is the simple and controversial
idea that you should be able to fix all
your stuff whether it is a cell phone or
a you know more complicated piece of
machinery we ought to be able to have
access to the parts information we need
to repair our own stuff kind of like
with my battery last week I didn't have
to go directly back to the manufacturer
to swap a battery out of my car so I'm
just advocating for the same thing for
electronics in the sense just have more
resources people to fix things so you're
not stuck going to the manufacturer
paying too much for repair costs and
yeah limited parts availability Ola and
this is increasingly an issue with
modern electronic products I mean there
have been barriers to repair in the past
we have rate repair laws for cars but
the moment you have software and devices
manufacturers pretty much of the ability
of a kill switch on anything they could
decide to pair a part with the product
and then unless you have the their fancy
software that but yeah turns out
manufacturers don't really like this and
that's why we're you know we need your
help why we started this live stream
just to get more people involved in the
movement to try to get a bill passed and
just one state to require manufacturers
to can give us some more resources and
parts and tools so that's why we're here
so yeah but today we're just gonna talk
about we've had some recent hearings in
some of the states and we want to talk
about your guys's experience and also
talk about what the opposition is saying
and give our kind of rebuttal and kind
of debunk some of those things yeah cuz
there you know some valid concerns but
ultimately you know anybody can if you
can play them with Legos with your
cousin and build some epic Lego thing
then you can you know open up a phone
and swap out the battery of the screen
so we want you to be able to do that
easier just in the last two weeks since
we had our last episode that we've had
the hearings in three states and so I
went up to Olympia and I testified in
Washington Nathan was in New Hampshire
testifying at that hearing there's been
a lot going on and and for some reason
that all these hearings are in northern
states and so I was I would I flew into
Portland and I was driving to Olympia at
11:00 at night and the roads were just
sheer ice and I counted in the 15 mile
stretch I count 11 cars off on the side
of the road so we are braving life and
limb out there to get right to repair
done and I mean it was really fun I got
a visit
and meet some really cool very dialed in
repair shops in Washington that are
super passionate super dedicated to
their craft incredibly skilled of what
they do and really being shut out of
being able to repair some of the latest
gizmos did turn out there and that's you
know one thing that we're urging you
know everybody that's listening on the
call we're gonna post links to repair
org and resources on repaired org so you
can contact your state reps go to those
hearings send emails we've made it
really easy so but you know you were
saying it's really important for us to
have people like to show up at these
hearings or for the cause yeah how any
kind of you know political change gets
done
there are entrenched opposition to
anything and it takes it takes concern
to activate it excited so so talk about
and say this is why it matters and our
electrodes were there to listen to us
and they are they we had really really
constructive conversations with a lot of
people so I think for this hour we're
gonna dive in and we're going to talk
about you know some of the specifics
that have been going on what we've
learned in some of the states and also
some of the some of the challenges what
the kind of leading repair shops in the
world are running into and that's where
I'm excited to have Michael and Louis on
because these guys are at the forefront
of pushing the envelope of technology to
figure out how to fix the latest gizmos
before we started the air we were
talking about doing gather recovery on
the iPhone 10 which requires some some
advanced techniques so we're gonna be
diving in and talking about that yeah so
don't be afraid to comment with your
questions I'm watching on here and yeah
we've got questions for all the leaders
in repair right now so comment and I'll
make sure they get those over to
everybody so yeah so hearings in
Washington how did that go and I want to
hear from everybody else too on if you
you guys have been to any hearings or
you know something similar but uh yeah
tell us how Washington won and yeah so
Washington was really cool we we what's
neat about Washington hearings and
actually livestream it so we had we had
people watching from all over the
country what Washington was saying the
Washington bill is unique from the other
rate repair bills and that the sponsor
in Washington is really frustrated with
glutton batteries and devices and so the
Washington bill actually says you can't
glue a battery into a device with the
screen which is kind of cool the
Washington bill is limited
right now just two devices with screen
so it would cover cellphones and tablets
and laptops just fine but it wouldn't
cover some of the other types of
equipment like servers and Rather's that
people have been having issues with but
it's a it's a good bill we had a a
robust hearing we had representatives
from all the big manufacturers show up
we had someone from Apple from Google
from Amazon Microsoft all some people to
show up but they were all too chicken to
testify and so it was fascinating the
room was full of lobbyists they all had
their two thousand dollar suits and are
all probably billing $700 an hour to sit
there and listen to us talk and they
were too afraid to talk and instead what
they did was they hid behind their trade
associations and and so we've got some
leathers from some of the the the
opposition that I will I'll pull up and
go through what we'll talk through later
but the the folks who spoke were from
true these these alphabet-soup trade
associations that you've never heard of
folks like CTIA and CTA and CompTIA and
and they're just kind of hired guns
because the manufacturers know like
Apple knows if they come out and they're
visible talking against write repair
it's such a popular idea that they're
not going to they just kind of look
foolish so instead they hide behind
trade associations and unfortunately
that that's an effective tactic so we're
going to pull back the curtain a little
bit on what what they're saying so the
hearing was really cool we we had the
opportunity to testify we had some folks
from free geek which is awesome
nonprofit refurbisher and recycling
collective we had local shops Olympia
iPhone repair and the Cole testified did
a really great job and sweet we had a
really cool group of people they just
you know you get up there and you say
look this is my thing Nicole told a
story of someone who brought in an iPad
pro into her shop the day before and she
was initially thinking she could fix it
but then she was searching around she
turned out she didn't have the schematic
for that that iPad and so they weren't
able to do the repair and so she had
told the the customer just go and buy a
new $600 yes it was a it was a really
good group and that's where we've been
successful in these states as we get you
know a local kind of you know concern
group of excited interests of the
individuals and then show up and and
let's say is really cared about what we
had to say and we we were able to talk
with some legislators after the hearing
and they were really impressed but you
know where we're fighting I mean it's
it's ten local folks up against some of
the biggest most profitable companies in
the history of the world so it's a
pretty fascinating show that I mean it's
awesome that we get a sit and have equal
kind of footing with them so when we
commit I mean again this is like a
bipartisan bill or an issue in a sense
we've got Democrats that are liking for
the sustainability aspect and a lot of
people from you know middle America farm
industry that are you know there's
reasons on both sides to love this bill
and so when people get up and have these
like the opposition it gives their you
know their viewpoints their I don't know
I don't feel like they always hold a lot
of water but what are the like hard and
some of those like the top issues that
they raised in the in the hearing yes
I've got a letter here from the
organization's the alphabet soup of
associations that opposed us and had
gone through and highlighted some of the
things that they said that they they
said we believe that if enacted this
legislation would lead to grave
unintended consequences to the operation
security and safety of these products
agreements between OMS repair networks
which blew businesses of all sizes would
be undermined and provide no protection
or quality assurance for consumers so
all pits this over the Michael over that
who runs a repair center in independent
unauthorized repair southern Ohio is
your business providing no protection or
quality insurance for your customers I
would have to argue a little bit on that
I I don't think we've ever done anything
that would cause any type of that
recourse to happen I believe the only
thing that we're doing is providing a
cost-effective option to consumers that
need an option locally instead of gold
the manufacturer I don't think we've
ever put somebody in danger with a
repair project
but so this is a legitimate question
right because the manufacturer is saying
look we've got our billion-dollar brand
standing behind our service centers and
we invest a lot in training and support
and we're going to make sure that we
provide a good experience why you know
why isn't that's a
oh I mean I do believe that you know
when it comes to what we're trying to do
here and the independent repair shops we
would need to have some type of
standardization about what the
experience is like in store and I think
that we can provide that for them I
understand they don't want us to like
degrade their brand but there's a lot of
good owner operators like myself out
there that would be more than happy to
operate on a level that will meet their
ethics and standardization that they're
looking for I don't think you're gonna
have a ton of people that would abuse
the power I guess what we just need to
enforce it it feels like this is a
little bit like the local auto mechanic
right you've got you can go the dealer
and you know they're gonna do a decent
job but you've also got local mechanics
and there's a spectrum of quality with
local mechanics how do you feel like the
you know the quality of the service that
you provide compares to what what a
polar or another om service woman would
be I think our service is better most of
the time to be honest with you I think
our repairs are quicker we offer repairs
like charge ports and simple things that
the OEMs don't offer that it's a you
know like if you walk into a an apple
store right now for example and you try
to get a charge port fixed that they're
doing an out of warranty swap which is
somewhere between like 249 and 500
dollars for the swap the parts very
cost-effective when we offer that in 90
minutes for less than 100 bucks so
there's a lot of repairs that we're
offering that are very cost effective
compared to the manufacturer because
when they go in they're just offering a
swap process basically so I believe
there's a lot of services out there like
that and board-level and data recovery
that consumers need that aren't even
offered by manufacturers so oh it's kind
of a hard argument when we have so many
services that we do they aren't even
offered by a manufacturer okay at all
well and that's I think you know
sometimes we talk about if you're
talking about Apple because that's who
you're competing with it's it's not so
much about what Apple will do but almost
what they won't do like Apple done is
basically screens batteries what else do
they do matters to give you a problem
it's not a screen in the battery there
are approaches just a milliard to myself
I think that like the Benz and the phone
is a great example for me like if you
walk into an Apple store right now and
try to get your screen fixed and there's
the bend in the frame like at all that
is denied for the screen repair I mean
call me biased because I'm the you know
country boy from the middle of Ohio but
I can bend that frame back in ten
seconds to put a screen on it just fine
the consumer doesn't necessarily need to
replace that phone I think that this you
know reason I am advocating for this and
have been for a long time is because of
the lack of the options for the consumer
because they're being financially driven
in a direction that's not always best
for that we saw this at the earnings
call just with Apple earnings call the
fact that they brought up upgrades and
it alert of the lack of upgrades being
something that really impacted your
bottom line but they don't have the
resources to actually do a lot of the
repairs that need to be or that can be
done and so yeah that that trade just
always automatically happens yeah yeah
it leaked out Apple did their earnings
call and they also had an internal
company meeting and employees Apple in
2018 they did 11 million iPhone battery
swaps which sounds like a lot but then
you realize Apple selling over two
hundred million iPhones a year and every
phone that's two years old needs a new
battery oh listen
you're back here like well is it where
where is the extra hundred million
iPhones a year that need batteries and
who's going to do those swaps and and
the OEM sister love the capacity it's
like it's like if Ford said we're gonna
be the only ones who are changing tires
and cars there aren't enough Ford text
in the world to change all the f150
tires need to be swapped out we also
need to keep in mind on this point like
how many how many consumers like at can
Apple just for an example reach you know
they only have so many retail locations
in the US they can only reach a certain
percentage of the consumers we get so
many stories from people saying that
they have to drive you know to plus or
however many hours to get to the Apple
store and you know hopefully even under
due diligence by getting an appointment
and hopefully they remember that you
have an appointment and all there's you
know any number of things that could
make that trip you know costly and just
you know not worth it and especially if
you show up and they say sorry we're not
going to complete that repair like
that's even that's even worse um we've
got a question that came in Qing crane
said I've heard industry express
concerns about the risk of bad repairs
from unauthorized technicians okay
would trade school certificates or
independent repair businesses be a good
compromise I just kind of want attention
how did you guys learn
the skills that you have now and and how
is that different than you know the
genius that's sitting behind the bar
that's doing half the repairs that you
guys are actually doing
yeah can you guys talk on that I mean we
definitely could use some training
programs or a more standard of attainder
training program I should say but a lot
of us are just DIY people that you know
once you've played around enough you
kind of figure it out so when you look
at an independent repair technician
their skill sets much more broad but
just think if we had the information and
the tools that we needed to do how much
more precise and good we could be at
those repairs instead of you know
learning by failure versus you know when
you walk into the OEMs and it's kind of
just a robotic level one technician or a
robotic level 2 technician I mean
they're just trained on certain
verticals I think that there's a lot of
very intelligent and crafty people you
know one of them being Lois sitting on
this call today was probably one of the
best technicians out there you know and
he did not need you know certain
training programs but imagine if we
could hand all of these skilled people
out here who are already doing
high-level repairs that the OEMs are not
imagine if we could hand them the
information that they need how good
could they be and jessa
is on here I've had rehab same
certifications that only make a
difference if the OEMs are willing yet
to sell parts to certify partners so
it's like great even if you know we knew
how to do it we still need the the
hardware to get the job done so I'd be
curious Louis what's your perspective on
on how people learn and you know what is
the skill level in the Indian where
you're at I think most people are gonna
learn best through hands-on through
actually experimenting not through
because most trade schools that you go
to they're at just the time it takes to
set up a curriculum you're already one
device behind most of the trade schools
that exist for anything considering like
close to what we do are typically behind
the it's mostly just hands-on
experimentation and you have to find
people that are able to take like just
its basic common sense you know if I
took a long screw out of this hole am I
going to put a short screw back in and
vice versa that kind of thing and some
people can do it and some people can't I
don't think that necessarily going to a
trade school is going to be necessary
the same way
would be to be you know a plumber or a
different type of trades person and I
think that the resources that are
available I'm like I would trust
somebody who's watched Jess's channel
for six months over somebody that had
two years of trade school if it came to
who I wanted to open my phone and I
think that the you know the and I also
disagree with the idea of creating
another barrier to entry since one of
the things that's made this industry
great is the fact that there is a low
barrier to entry now some would say
having a low barrier to entry means that
you're gonna have lower quality but as
I've been showing with things like the
decease at working conditions the CSAT
training system that they have which is
one of the large warranty providers for
Apple that I would trust one of my first
day employees more than I would trust
sending something to see set so I don't
I don't necessarily think that having a
certification program is gonna make
things any better I just think it adds
red tape and nightmare to the people who
are gonna be doing the work so for those
of our listeners that aren't familiar
with cset this is when you when you you
know take your computer your phone into
Apple and they they say well we can't do
the repair at the store so we'll either
give you a refurbishment or we'll mail
in for repair this is one of those mail
and repair centers and some of the
employees that these centers have been
posting on forums recently complaining
about working conditions and talking
about what it's like wouldn't they been
saying about what it's like working in
these centers well they've said that you
know there's issues with like air
conditioning there is one bathroom for
over 400 people the pay is low after two
weeks people are allowed to just start
to working on stuff with it now the one
of the other issue is that the place is
certified to do repairs for Apple but
then they can actually hire people who
are not certified or knowledgeable in
anything so that have never worked on a
computer to do something so you could
say authorized facility working on it
but then who does the authorized
facility choose to hire and then there's
also the issue of like again if I could
find somebody who is completely useless
who cannot figure out what screw goes
and what hole to save their life it
doesn't remember anything about what
they're taking apart but who got a
certification let's say they're really
really good at taking apart an iPhone 4
but they're an idiot and then the iPhone
5 comes out they're just gonna put the
wrong screw in the wrong hole because
they rely on the certification of
memorizing everything so I don't think
that a certification would do much and
as you could see from large certified
repair centers in the quality of what
they're putting out and the amount of
mistakes that their own internal
employees are admitting a
I just I don't think that it would it
would be beneficial to the industry
I see how it could be seen as a
compromise we want intelligent people
working on our stuff and it makes sense
but if the two arguments to that or a
you can have good people working on your
stuff if you choose a place that has
good reviews and be people who are
terrible at working on electronics or
already doing it whether it's in a
certified or uncertified capacity in our
current system yeah I think I think it's
reasonable for me it was done to control
they're going to say that they provide
the best service whether it whether they
actually do right but what it really
amounts to at the end of the day is that
they want to be the ones to dictate what
happens we're in at what price and
that's that's how they control the
market opportunity they're saying it
allows them to control quality we're
seeing maybe maybe that's true maybe not
we've seen a lot of reports coming out
of Apple's absolutely abysmal repair
facilities in India where they're using
independent authorized centers and
they're providing terrible service for
customers I'd be curious Michael what do
you think what's what's the big
differentiator for you what's the value
that you as an independent add over over
an authorized option Oh outside of you
know obviously we talked about certain
repairs that we offer that the other
ones don't but I mean I think that
there's a more personal touch to a lot
of things that we do our speed is a lot
is a big thing but I think really just
has come down to the in-store experience
you know I think that since we're local
we're giving them a different type of
experience versus a corporate
environment don't get me wrong my
employees or incentivize to obviously
work the best that they can with the
customer provide a solution to their
problem whether it's repair or buying a
new device but I think our experience is
just unique because we are local people
know who we are and they have a
different trust level with us then
working with an OEM yeah makes sense to
me well question from king crane again
some repair legislation says OEMs must
make parts and info available for repair
does write to repair want om to do this
for free or simply make them available
for purchase and we've gotten some good
examples Motorola's a great example of
you some yeah mother always kept up and
said they want us all parts to
consumerism so they're working with
resellers like I fix it there's others
yeah I mean of course you're not gonna
provide parts for free
Nathan do you want to talk a little bit
about what what the
with actually require yeah so the bill
requires you know five things right so
parts and tools any specialized tools
like for example if there's a special
screwdriver required to open the device
would you'd have to provide them at fair
and reasonable terms which is basically
what they sell to their authorized
dealer so if if you're an author you've
an authorised relationship with an OEM
and they sell you parts you have to then
sell others the parts at those same
costs and then but the repair
information you have to provide that for
free so that would be like the
schematics the the repair software any
kind of security updates or patches that
would have to be provided to anyone for
free makes sense to me though the idea
is what what the whatever the dealership
has access to if it's if it's the
Samsung or Apple or whoever authorized
repair center you break I fix has
recently become authorized by Samsung so
the kind of information that Samsung is
selling to you break ethics stores or
you the diagnostic software into Lane
that you need to make those fully
available and II just come in and said
wouldn't this put those authorized
dealers out of business so yeah that's a
concern we know this is an argument that
the manufactures have brought up so I
have here this is this leather from the
manufacturers opposing the bill you know
they say hey the agreements between OMS
and their authorized repair networks
would be undermined and you know they
this is this is a concern that they'll
say well we have invested a lot in
training our technicians so you're going
to be taking away two livelihood from
our from our local businesses you guys
one do that yeah I'm always part of that
like they have to compete with those
services in the market against their
competition and if they want to maintain
their business repairing things they'll
have to offer competitive service when
we have right to repair with automobiles
does that mean people people still take
some repairs to the dealers but they
might have a local mechanic that they
like better to do so
jobs and you know the there's efficiency
in competition and choice and control is
important and so I think that yeah there
is some trade-offs but I do think that
ultimately the system that we have is
works best when people have a choice my
question would be is why can't I apply
to be an authorized OEM Network person
and like why can't I apply a palapa and
what ten plus years so like I don't
understand where they're coming from but
I like the point it doesn't make sense
because I can apply to be a part of that
at this point nor like in my areas in
Ohio is even within an hour to two hours
of either of my locations is there an
authorized location so there's clearly
geographical issues with where they're
retail locations and they're authorized
partners are asked it's clearly not you
know I think they're just mad that they
don't want anybody else in the pie and
David comment and said you know he said
36 million iPhones sold in the US
however many millions of devices are out
there there are plenty to go around and
there's just and there's you know we
just need more people you know fixing
things with high quality with high
quality parts so what the OEMs would say
was hey there's plenty of choice right
now they say when an electronic product
breaks consumers have a variety of
repair options including using an OEM
authorized repair network which awful
includes local repair service providers
as well as male and even in-house repair
options for some products so what's
wrong with that that sounds pretty good
what happens when you're in Findlay Ohio
and you have a flight in six hours and
your screens broke on your phone there's
nothing you can do I think the only
answer to when they say that it would
that it would hurt their own independent
means their own authorized service
centers if they're giving these
authorized materials to other people is
just so say so yep and is that something
that should be the concern of the
senator the car analogy is a good one
the local shops maybe the shops are
willing to fix parts that aren't or
maybe they're willing to use a different
and the other thing to bring up would be
let's say if you know if there's liquid
damage on a touch bar motherboard you
know are they going to compete with you
on that are they gonna compete with you
if your iPhone 10 falls on a toilet on
data recovery on many different many
jobs they're not actually offering a
competing service you know if you go
into an Apple Authorized or fair
facility with ten million dollars in
cash and say can you fix this iPhone 6
that needs c5 202 removed they won't do
it so that there's no there's no
competition there and the third concern
if we're talking about Apple
specifically I don't know how this
applies to other vendors is that Apple
is already putting their own Apple
Authorized service providers out of
business and they've been trying to do
so for the past five years they're not
allowed to change screens on iPhones
without mailing them to Apple they can't
pay you know they can't change a
headphone jack they can't change a
charging port they're not allowed to do
anything so they're killing the their
ability for a a SPS to make money at all
and you see this in the fact that there
are AAA SPS that are closing or
branching off into other industries so
that they can feed themselves so I mean
if the concern is well you're gonna put
our authorized providers out of business
I would ask them why are you putting so
much effort into putting these off these
providers out of business has it I don't
know if that would work with other
companies but if the argument was that
was the argument Apple is making the
counter that's the counter-argument that
I would use there do you guys know how
many devices that are older than five
years are floating around Ohio right now
like how one of those consumers supposed
to do with the legacy devices yeah like
I did this one I have this one video
where I called about six or seven
different authorized service providers
it was 45 minutes long I called all
these providers at different problems
and I asked them what they could do for
me and the answer for most of them was
just nothing I mean they're being put
out of business already by Apple not
allowing them to fix anything so let's
talk about data recovery which is a
service that a lot of the independent
shops are doing that you know I've never
heard of any Oh am in any industry doing
this kind of service can you can you
describe what what kind of data are you
are you able to recover if you telephone
that with drop of the toilet what can
happen well you you can do if you can
get it to oftentimes a full restore so
you know ideally if you were able to get
the thing to boot up and there's no you
know like software that's messed up as a
result of it you know you can typically
do just the full backup so you know you
Frankenstein the phone to get it to a
point where it works again which is
usually some convoluted board repair you
can see this on Jess's channel where
she's running wires under chips and
knocking things off of the board and an
attempt to make it work again you attach
it to a computer
you run iTunes it just does a backup and
you can restore it to another iPhone as
long as you have the passcode to it with
as Jessa and I both know lots of
customers don't include but if you have
the passcode you can take a liquid
damaged iPhone and get almost everything
off of it so that you could restore it
to another phone and again that's a
service that the OEM will not offer for
any amount of money they the only
provider that they will refer you to
ever is a company called Drive saver is
that about five minutes ago
realize that they may be able to make
money off of this by you know and the
people that work there have less
experience than somebody like myself or
Jessa I mean they ordered trips for me
like if the company that Apple is
authorizing to do this stuff is ordering
chips from the company that they're
saying don't use that person they're
unauthorized they don't know like really
like III have POS here that show that
the company that Apple says is the only
company that can get your data from is
buying parts from me well and that's
that's because sell parts right there
that's all I needs components come on
Justin just got banned from Support
Forums for just telling people like yes
this is possible this is how ridiculous
this is
Apple rec Apple recommends drive savers
as the place to do data recovery yet
they will buy chips from me like why are
they not me that's how effed up their
supply chain is yeah well Apple I have a
feeling Apple's not providing drivers
with anything I've ever had yeah
something tells ya something tells me
they're not getting tristar from
Cupertino yeah even even if you go to
these the is centralized repair depots
they don't do a great job I mean Apple
buys screwdrivers from me all the time
because they can't get their own
pentalobe drivers this is not a unique
problem it turns out that the free
market is good for everybody including
the manufacturer oh yeah one of the
things that I mentioned at the beginning
was Nicole was testifying from from
Olympia iPhone repair she was testifying
talking about she couldn't get the
schematic for an iPad pro and so she
couldn't do a board level repair can you
guys explain what are these schematics
what are people talking about
well schematic is if you if you open
your device you'll see that there's all
these little like these square chips
these little black and brown little
things that have called resistors or
capacitors or diodes and all those
little pieces are attached and you can
see that there's little lines in the
board and all the schematic does is tell
you where those lines go now this is it
so it'll tell me this
News attaches to the backlight attaches
to the connector on this pin and it's
something that could technically be
obtained through somebody manually
sitting there and measuring everything
it's just impractical even though you
could do this it's just impractical to
do so on you know the 35 devices that
come out every single year but it's just
a document that shows you where
everything is attached and one of the
interesting things is that they'll say
this is intellectual property this has
trade secrets this is going to allow
people to hack our products but it's
just the drawing that shows you how
everything is attached inside the
product that you already bought and it's
something that you could obtain that
they're already essentially the
intellectual property in that schematic
is already being sold when you sell the
device and the argument that it's a
trade secret or that it's going to lead
to security issues is insane because
that would mean that simply being able
to open the device would lead to your
trade secret being revealed which means
it's not necessarily a secret anymore so
it's just that it's just a convenience
yeah just opening a device doesn't mean
you're gonna share all those you know
but okay so what kind of trouble can
people get into if they open up a device
creator and schematic and post it online
like is there a totally legal if you
made your schematic it's just so would
be it's just like it says likely for
that to happen as it is for you know 20
monkeys to write the work of Shakespeare
like technically they could randomly
type it it's just that's it's not gonna
happen in a reasonable timeframe have
you guys heard what uh what we call oops
in Ohio so my dad owns an excavation
company right and they what they do is
dig in the ground they put pipe work so
before you start digging you have to get
what's called done in hoops where the
county comes out and the city comes out
spray paints where all the lines are on
the ground for you so you don't hit
anything this is kind of how I explain
like what a schematic is to something
Ohio is I let them understand it's it's
the blueprint to what's underneath the
board kinda like what's underneath the
grout where's the water where's the
sewer where is the electric and we're
provided the information like my dad is
in the planning so that we don't we know
where to go with what we're trying to do
based on the blueprint and we don't hit
you think we're not supposed to so it's
kind of I explained a quick understand
that it's it's funny that we can get it
in an excavation organization but we
can't get it on a computer that we
thought okay I can go I can go trench
into the ground and get it from the
county but when I try to fix my macbook
no you're not allowed to have with the
information what's underneath
and so and so protecting their
intellectual property has always been a
big argument of theirs but I think and
they're proactive and yeah we have
definitely had community members upload
these schematics to I fix it and then
Apple sends us legal take down this is
demanding we take it offline so it's not
like they're there silently sitting
there right they're actively using very
expensive lawyers to prevent the repair
community from having this information
you can go after people that are
literally trying to steal your
intellectual property and give people
resources to repair like it's not
they're not it doesn't have to be
squished together there and the
companies already do this to each other
I mean one good example is medical or
you talk a lot about you know personal
devices but you know a hospital will
have thousands and thousands and
thousands of electronic devices right
and they all get serviced for those
devices from the original manufacturers
and from individual parties and they'll
have some that they service themselves
and the the medical device manufacturers
will compete with each other to
reverse-engineer each other stuff which
you know I mean think about think about
the how badly this works for the
consumer right like health care costs
are very high you know like it's a huge
problem and we're paying in our
healthcare dollars
for this crazy system where you know
company a like GE or Philips is reverse
engineering company B's stuff and
they're competing with each other but
all of that is just wasted effort which
just adds to the total cost of health
care so I mean you know it's not just
that you know yeah and then this is
literally part of the system we have now
where companies are with our health care
dollars reverse engineering machines
that they already have the schematics
for just because they won't share them
because they think that they can
reverse-engineer them better than their
competition I mean I understand the
concept they don't want people reverse
engineering you know Apple or Samsung
technology but is a repair shop like me
gonna actually reverse engineer a logic
board of them new MacBook Pro retina
touch bars like and that that's what
they're trying to say is like oh they're
gonna root you know they're gonna
re-engineer reverse-engineer our product
and I could see that from manufacturer
to manufacturer but giving this
information to repair shops who are
trying to repair the product not
remanufactured is a totally different
story
I think there's three points there the
first is that the idea that you're not
going to remanufacture the product or
that Michael Lorber dick and I are not
going to be 3d printing MacBooks in our
stores any at least not for the next
year check us out in December but the
idea is that it these schematics already
exists if you have five dollars and are
willing to go to some Russian FTP server
you can get that schematic so if that is
the case why don't we see matte MacBook
clones using the identical board and the
reason is the schematic in and of itself
is not enough information to actually
make a macbook it's enough information
to know oh look they use the TPS five
one nine eight two and it attaches to
this resistor over here which again is
something that if they if you know if a
company has an x-ray machine and the
scanner and some automated way to
measure they could do this in one day
it's the reason it is a much more that
goes into making a MacBook or an iPhone
or a surface than that document you
cannot make and you cannot make a
macbook or a surface just by having this
schematic of the surface layer of what's
going on you don't have the you don't
have the routing of the traces inside
the board you don't have time you're
missing all sorts of information so I
understand where some I can understand
if somebody says you know this is a
capitalist society we have a free market
and they have a right to protect trade
secrets they have a right to say we
don't want it is give another company
schematic on how to build our product
after we spend billions in research
because that's going to destroy the
section of the economy and stifle
innovation I can understand that I think
we should keep that out of it and just
tell tell people the truth which is with
this document in a thousand years you
are not gonna use this document to clone
a macbook it's not possible it can't be
done in your hand with your phone with
your laptop like you you have it in your
schematic is not going to yeah yeah yeah
like this is all the schematic is doing
is saying where the stuff on this board
is attached if you have a multimeter you
could beep this out but now the second
point that's important to bring up is
that if you have five dollars you can
buy this schematic online so if that
type of level of piracy were to occur of
schematics were available they would
already occur we're simply asking for
something to be legalized that is
already widespread because if you my
argument would be if a 12 year old with
their parents PayPal account can get a
schematic after five minutes of google
searching it's not really a trade secret
because it's so for lis protected and if
that very poorly protected trade secret
has been out for five
and nobody's used it to cologne a
Macbook maybe it's not necessarily a
secret
the third point that I would make here
is this one presidential candidate
Andrew yang who had an idea when it
comes to legislation which is a law
should be on the books for a certain
period of time after that period of time
there should be some sort of committee
that says whether or not that law is
still relevant in modern times and if we
look at this when it comes to
intellectual property and trademark law
these laws around intellectual property
and Trademark were created in a
different culture those laws were
created back when every single radio
that you bought had a schematic in it
every single television set had a
service manual in it it was a part of
the culture that we fix our things these
laws would not have been drafted the way
that they were drafted if we lived in a
2019 culture of people saying you want
to know where efuses no I'm gonna have
my 1200 and our law firm go after you so
these laws were created during a time
with a different culture in mind then
none of these laws would have likely
been on the books if people were told
that this would be used against you to
keep you from repairing your own stuff
right they're effectively criminalizing
the good guys the bad guys are already
crooks are already gonna do what they're
going to do yeah the idea to think that
an engineer sharing a schematic could be
put in prison or something for sharing
the schematic of something that his
company made this is like the law that
allows that to be illegal would never
have been created in a modern climate it
was created in a climate where people
fix things and those laws are obsolete
in dealing with modern you know modern
intellectual property issues right well
in the kinds of mechanisms they're going
after I mean copyright there's up to a
hundred and fifty thousand dollars per
infringement fine if they can just these
are fines that were designed to prevent
movie piracy that Apple and Motorola and
others have abused to go after companies
go after individuals for fixing their
things I think Lewis makes a good point
I actually saw good me and the other day
where it had like 200 year old like
influencers and the politicians sitting
around a table laughing because they
said we haven't updated some of the like
legislation and things in over 200 years
they're just around laughing about it
and I think that's a good point is that
you know this was crafted so long ago
yeah I just I'm kind of leery of using
arguments that like you know with the
healthcare argument I understand in
terms of decreasing health care costs
but the idea that like we want documents
that would allow you to reverse engineer
that when we use that argument we make
it sound as if a schematic could be used
to reverse engineer a product when that
is not enough information right I just
don't want to give people the idea that
the documents that we're using even have
the potential to be used in a manner
where you could just reverse engineer
and Macbook reverse engineer is the
wrong term I mean they they they learn
how to fix the other company's stuff and
they do that by kind of making their own
schematics and they like company a just
believes that they can make their own
repair manuals for Company B stuff
better than Company B can make it for
their stuff and then they make sense and
they that makes much more sense that
justifies us consumers paying more money
in our healthcare because they have this
silly advantage in the marketplace which
is they're better at writing repair
manuals for somebody else's stuff when
that manual already exists yeah okay
that's not that makes more sense III
misunderstood I thought that you were
saying like to actually create a new
product not just simply repair
discussion because this underlies imma
we're talking about we're bringing out
into the public the thing that every
repair shop is using they're using these
schematics they're doing it illegally
and and we need legislative really yeah
I just slides off screen somebody
brought up a good point how come car
manufacturers don't have the same
argument against intellectual property
yeah question they did the car
manufactures said this exactly this
whole thing is Groundhog Day nothing new
like this bill isn't new in your head
yeah all of these arguments happened in
2010 11 12 when the other aftermarket
Association was was trying to get all
over H of her past they have the exact
same arguments the car manufacturers had
a hey if we have to make the service
information available the Chinese car
companies are going to knock off our
cars and here we are seven years later
right repairs been the law of the land
since Massachusetts passed in 2012 and
this guy has not fallen
and cars have lots of technology in them
now and there's like you know yeah and
that brings me to some of these safety
discussions because one of the arguments
that we get is yeah hey we have you know
we're very you know responsible we take
care of our safety agreements between om
Czar's repair networks would be
undermine and would provide no quality
insurance for consumers what they're
saying on the other hand I feel like
it's giving them yeah Maura or just yeah
more of that well it's just something
I'd like to bring up Louis and and
Michael do you guys have insurance for
your business are you trying to sell me
no I just like you have insurance right
yeah like what kind of insurance
specifically like we don't have
insurance that covers like if we break a
device or if it blows up but we do have
liability insurance workers compensation
and all like if Paul blows his head off
on the on a Macbook or something then
you know even he would get two weeks off
you're always talking about safety but
it would be safer if we had these
resources because people are fixing
things they're already do it we have
seven to ten year olds that are you know
swapping screens for their new business
and stuff so it doesn't you know when
they sell us that device it doesn't get
the repairs don't get any more dangerous
I guess after the fact right now I think
people are mostly afraid of Samsung Note
six of like the Samsung Note thing where
phones are going to explode in their
pockets because they got fixed at an
independent repair center so you do
really have to find an argument to
convince them that we're not Samsung
with the note seven but right now in
Ohio it's more dangerous to walk into my
repair store or the local Apple store up
in Toledo and slip on ice and it is to
actually get something to come out of
the store and hurt you there's a way
higher odds to slip walk it in my front
door than there is for us to repair
something caused as far maybe they break
your fall yeah well it well one of the
things that would probably help is some
sort of way of saying if the different
devices are paired and it blows up that
the liability is not on the manufacturer
because I don't think that the
manufacturer honest I don't think that
they care about safety
I think they care about the fact that we
are in a very overly literature society
where we litigate virtually everything
and they don't want to be held liable
for this you know somebody is suing
Apple over the
that they don't like two-factor
authentication I mean people sue over
everything and their concern is probably
you know that that one case where one
person gets a billion dollars because
their phone blew up in their pocket
because some jackass left a shard of
glass inside the iPhone with a glowing
battery I mean a blow expanding battery
so if there was a way that I think the
way to calm these concerns would be to
have some language in there or where
they if the device is repaired by a
third party you're off the hook or if
the device gets old used you're after
use an accountability as almost like a
fear like they're taking accountability
of small business and turning it into a
fear on the consumer which is not
correct like as a small business owner I
need to take accountable you know taking
an account like what happens if one of
my consumers is hurt from something I do
and that's like just logical you know a
logical process so that's how it's been
for hundreds of years why all sudden are
we using something instilling fear in a
consumer that they can't go do something
it's because they want to sell new
devices like it's it's straightforward
they do want to so many devices for sure
and Jessa said they aren't really afraid
of that it's a scapegoat there no this
is the culture that we had where we
always fix their own stuff and didn't
care about the fact that like you know
the car whatever may blow out there burn
something in my face was during a time
when people were not suing for virtually
everything well we have precedent for
liability if people do repairs
incorrectly I mean if your local
mechanic does your brakes wrong and you
get an accident the mechanic is liable
the manufacturer is not liable and so
we've talked asked me if action we've
offered to give them more explicit
liability protection it turns out that
the existing laws on the books already
cover them perfectly fun right all right
so that's a great argument right there
so if existing laws already exists then
you could say okay so what do you now
the next thing you bring up is okay so
how many how many billion dollars is
there a pair of business worth and how
many phones have gone on fire besides
the Samsung Note seven right how many is
this or you know demonstrate that this
is an actual problem right and I feel
like we can't allow the standard of
argument to be like what crazy
hypothetical possible situation can we
manufacture to justify nobody having
total ownership of their own stuff right
I mean are we in New Hampshire the
eh-hem the association of home appliance
manufacturers testified that you know
what if you miss repaired the latch on
your washing machine and it was spinning
and a child reached in and like you know
their hand was torn off or something by
the spinning of the washing machine it's
like you can't just how many times does
it happen exactly exactly
you can't just manufacture a crazy
hypothetical like this the cybersecurity
arguments are the same way right Oh what
if we what if somebody hacks your thing
because you take it to another repair
store and it's like you can do that for
almost any computer in the world except
for the MacBook does that happen a lot
the people hack in to Dell laptops
constantly because the repair shops out
there are doing this I mean the question
this standard cannot be what crazy
hypothetical can you come up with it has
to be like what actually happens in the
world right what's the best way to
structure society do we want competition
and free markets or not do we want to
control our devices or not it seems like
what it really comes down to though just
has been bringing this up to is just
over ownership you bought this device
you own it and you should be able to
have the resources to be able to get it
fixed wherever you want but also
manufacturers have I would say an
obligation in a sense to one create
products that last man and are not
designed with planned obsolescence in
mind but also offering those parts keeps
things and keeps things running in it
just if you if they continue to harbor
all of this repair documentation info
we're just gonna have you know tongue
even even more a waste from the
sustainability aspect of like they have
an obligation to the consumer to create
a product and to keep that product
lasting longer because you invested in
it and it's yours and you can get fix
however you want but also to the planet
and just in general so that's you know
to avoid you know all these crazy
reasons and scenarios really that's kind
of what it comes down to this for
advocating on behalf of the consumer I
mean a consumer access felice sued
McDonald's because they burnt himself on
coffee McDonald's in stopped serving
coffee they put on their cups caution
maybe hot that was also some really
scalding boiling coffee like because
like third-degree burn she was in the
hospital is good there's some consumer
protection let's step back from talking
you know we've dissected their arguments
for a while and it's clear that they're
gonna continue making these crazy
arguments we will continue rebutting
them but but how do we how do we get the
arguments in front of the legislators
themselves so Nathan you were in your in
New Hampshire why don't you tell us kind
of how that hearing went and what the
process of going and testifying is like
sure so I mean basically in New
Hampshire you fill out like a little
form when you want to testify you hand
it in they start the hearing and then
they just call people to testify and you
know in our hearing there were dozens
and dozens and dozens of industry people
particularly in New Hampshire they had a
lot of like the lawn care dealers there
so there was like like I don't even know
how many there was a ton of people who
sell snowblowers and lawn mowers there
who are just you convinced or they you
know they were testifying basically that
you know if people could fix their own
lawn mowers or snowblowers or if you
know independent mechanics could fix
those things that immediately people
would just circumvent all the
environmental controls and make those
things dangerous which you know I think
that there is a good there are good
rebuttals for that but you know so I was
called forward I you know basically had
a couple minutes to talk I had prepared
remarks but I almost never read those I
just talked about what I feel like
talking about and you know there were
maybe five or six people from our side
there was a security expert Paul Roberts
there was you know if you're in northern
New Hampshire you should definitely go
to iPhone guys and the kind of North
Conway they they do a great job they
were testifying
some student organizers from postilion
collection network were there and then
two to three hours of industry
representatives and so the process from
there in in New Hampshire anyway is now
those legislators have to sit down and
decide if there's a version of this bill
that they want to advance out of that
committee and what that looks like what
changes they want to make whether or not
they want to vote for it and in the
meantime they're hearing constantly from
those industry representatives
you know Kyle you mentioned that in the
Washington Harry hearing you know
Microsoft and Amazon and Apple were
there but they didn't speak they save
all their talking for behind closed
doors that's that and they're definitely
talking there they're ringing the phone
we're at someone from Washington tells
the busy the phones are ringing off the
hook from some of these people and
they're constantly in their offices
talking about and they're they just
don't want to be public about it but you
know they're they are definitely talking
to their lawmakers and if they're not
also hearing from you know the people in
the you know their constituents people
who are trying to just manage technology
like normal people and have it
effectively effective and inexpensive
and a writer variety of options for
fixing their phones and tractors and
everything else like if we don't speak
up then you know we're not we're not
going so we've got to get more of us
more you know people that are fixing
things and in in their faces and in
their ear so we've got a bunch of
resources oh yeah I think he is is
getting especially the people doing
their paradigm have a Russell grab one
for a quick so we inform every consumer
through the door about right to repair
as long as they'll listen to us
and give them a cart of how to take
action because what I realized like a
year or two ago was yes I can make a
dent with my influence and so can Louis
with with our following repair industry
but it's more about the consumer or
taking action to me so what we've been
doing is trying to inform the consumers
as much as possible Russell's grabbing
one little cards at we we try to give to
every single repair we let them know
that we'd like to be here in five years
or now to do another repair for them or
whatever where they need us on this is
important that's great because that's
really they we need we need people to be
aware and and so we built a really easy
tool for you to write your reps you can
go that repair that org slash stand-up
or you can go to your state dot repairs
Ohio repaired org or New Hampshire got
repaired org and we have if there's a
bill in your state we've got the bill
number up there and then a very handy
leather writing widget so this is the
New Hampshire page
it's HB 462 in New Hampshire and then
you just fill in your info
my name on it and and you just punch in
your name and then that will tell you
who your reps are or if you want you can
actually punch in your phone number in
zip code and then we'll call your reps
for you call your cell and connect you
to them we've got another good question
how many states need to pass right
prepare for it to have a national effect
on how many and on how industry operates
there just need one building one state
yeah and the nice thing about this is
that we've got we got the precedent the
auto rate repair bill pass of
Massachusetts after that the car makers
agreed to apply that law nationwide with
electronic producer responsibility
electronics recycling laws that we have
after the first one passed it very
quickly passed in 24 other states the
first one is is the the hardest hurdle
to get over which is why the
manufacturers are so desperately doing
everything they can to stop us so you
can you know go to repair door except
stand up and we made it easy to write an
email but calling in leave a voicemail
for them just like you're telling a
story to your family member about
something that you fix you'll call in
and then we're gonna dive into this
maybe next time on just what it's really
like to sit down and like set up a
meeting with your state rep because
they're there to represent you and if
you call they'll they'll sit down and
talk with you and even if you just have
a repair story to share we just need to
get this in front of more people so yeah
call email and even sit down and have a
meeting
here's that card I'm just gonna show up
quick and if everybody wants a template
for this I get to caller whoever it just
says that repairs lifeblood of local
economies our members make products last
longer save owners money and create
local jobs fight for your right and take
action and like I said this is just
stuff that we hand out with every repair
and let them know we'd love to be here
for their next year we hope they don't
break anything again but we'd like to be
here for the next repair and this is
super important and then you get
surprised especially in Ohio with the
amount of farmers that we have around
here how much interest level we do get
out of it that's fantastic Louis what
was your experience the first time you
talked to a legislator um they honestly
they they like they were they seemed
interested they pretended to be
interested and then I think five seconds
after we walked out the door they went
to you know just caring about other more
pertinent issues so the real trick there
is is getting enough of us
with them yeah and and and giving them
kind of in spaces where the experiences
are memorable Nathan I know you've been
involved in some other legislative
campaigns that have been successful
what's what would have been the key
building blocks you've seen too you know
movements or logistic am pains that
worked in the past yeah that's a great
question I think you know when it comes
down to theory right the key is to make
the thing that you want to be in the
self-interest of the decision-maker so
how do we make it in the self-interest
of your state representative to support
right to repair they have to hear from
enough people with enough of a
compelling story that it they think okay
it's in my interest it'll make me look
good it'll it'll this these are the
values that I support these are the
people who vote for me or who I
represent and that has to be stronger
than the poll from the manufacturers
which which will say you know we'll give
money to your opponent or rattle and
litter he would say that directly but
that's the implied thing they're really
really upset about the you know they
manufacturers and through those
associations and through their lobbyists
give a lot of campaign contributions
even at the state and local level you
know maybe not in every state I know
probably not in New Hampshire where
that's like mostly a volunteer
legislature but this I mean it's a real
factor right so the make the
manufacturers come in and there's an
implied threat because of their ability
to manipulate the political process and
unless we can marshal enough public
support to kind of change the calculus
you know that's that's ultimately the
thing and then obviously this is an
issue with a vested powerful opposition
so we need to kind of have a show of
strength on a road side yeah we have to
figure out a way to make this issue as
politically sexy as you know like
climate change or like equity equality
and all the other things that are beats
and all the other subject things talked
about in the news like if you talk to
somebody about you know if you use a
modern buzzword people get it if you say
right to repair most people just kind of
look at
you and go what's that like I think
that's something that we do really well
just I'd fix it I fix it does well on
our social media channels just asking
people to share pictures of them fixing
things and anything doesn't mean
electronics that's our mission but just
fixing anything and showing people that
were capable because I think another
argument is that we were just not smart
enough to do this which is just
hilarious but um so the show of force
and can you know a happening in person
but also let you know make you miss
think about it on on social so follow us
on all those efforts to share your
stories with us because we compile them
and yeah put together campaigns and
blogs to share all of that because we
have to shed light on the people that
are actually fixing things getting out
there and the other thing is really take
advantage and pound home every time they
screw something up because that you know
like a you know when they when there's a
screen with a cable that's like that you
know an Apple has messed up something
that people have been getting right for
30 years you know point it out when the
phones are bending pointed out like all
of these things like but you know drive
at home as often as you can so that the
issue finally does become as sexy as all
the other stuff that we hear talked
about on TV every day so I've got links
in our description to repair org and the
stand up page where you can talk to your
rep so we have a lot of people that are
actually asking about you just in Europe
and you know what is right to repair
look like in Europe and that's a whole
nother discussion they probably do a
whole episode just on right repairing
your hair on point down the road there's
lots of activity happening we got the
very first right to repair bill passed
in Europe it's very very narrow for
refrigerators and it only has they only
have to make certain information
available to certain indepence
shops but it's like a toe in the door
and and so that's that's just the
beginning we're really excited about
that we have a really robust network
there everyone from the restart project
in the UK to the round table repair in
Germany that's that's working on getting
things together we had a local group of
students in Germany deliver a petition
with over a hundred thousand signatures
in the Environment Minister demanding
rate repairs so there's a lot happening
in Europe and we will we will dive into
that in depth in the future episode yeah
it's not called right to repair there
but there's a whole lot more going on
we've got just
like three minutes left I want to kind
of close on this question here from
inner nerd Sherman I messed that up okay
if passed in the United States this
should give a global impact to the
repair community can you highlight
exactly what would be affected or what
the perks would be so maybe if you want
to go through and everybody kind of what
are you most excited about when write to
repair or you know when we have one of
these laws get passed what's the major
perk that you're looking forward to the
biggest thing I'd be looking for is like
touch ID and certain things that we need
access to ana software side that's
causing restrictions we're trying
allowed a lot of repairs away that we
should be able to do incomplete that we
can't because we need to be able to like
really enable touch ID and certain
things like that and that would that
would be huge for us as a small business
to be able to have access to that I
would be excited just to not have to
wait a year or two before I can fix
something because usually we have to
wait for some dude in China to leak the
schematic and then we have to wait for
somebody else to leak that you know take
a spool of chips out back and then sell
it to somebody else it would be nice to
actually be able to fix the new MacBook
Air without having to tell somebody come
back in a year and I'll be able to get
your data it's just because all a lot of
the stuff that I want is kind of already
available you know I can go to a website
and find a schematic I can you know
Skype some Chinese guy and say can you
find us me a spool of this chip it would
just be nice to be able to get the stuff
earlier so that we could fix things you
know what while there while there's
still new for people who have out of
warranty issues like liquid damage and
the other thing is I don't know if this
is gonna happen since again Apple says
that drive savers is who they recommend
for data recovery so it does scare me
when there's when when they buy chips
from me because it means that their
internal supply chain is so bad that if
somebody who's even authorized and given
Blessing carte blanche here repair our
stuff has to buy chips for me then at
like how how bad is the supply chain to
the point where they can't buy a chip
from let's say maybe they will an extra
their supply chain has everybody because
it kind of makes me wonder is everybody
supply chiyan tire way this is set up is
it set up for manufacturing only and not
anything else because you know if the
world's richest company no it's one
thing a fish
company is doing this but when the
world's richest companies set up to the
points where somebody they authorized to
do something can't even get apart like
no is the global supply chain even set
up this way right I think it's really
our economy and and if we want to shift
to a circular economy or a refurbishment
and repair more than norm it's going to
cause some disruption but I think it
could be really fantastic imagine how
many more local jobs we would have
across the country if we had local
camera shops again if we had local TV
shops again so that's what I'm excited
about is reinvigorating kind of middle
America then how about you before we
last word the Nathan okay I would say
the thing I'm most excited about is you
know ending this assumption of
disposability that manufacturers have
kind of baked into our relationship with
electronics it wasn't a challenge that
then will start to challenge all the
other stuff that's going on you know
well we'll have well we'll get back to
the way things used to be where people
fix stuff and and I think that that
starts with us you know kind of
challenging risk this one first thing
with unrepairable electronics yeah stop
perpetuating the idea that things you
know either can't be fixed and give
people the resources and in order to do
it so fantastic well this is a really
great discussion thank you so much Luis
and Michael and Nathan for joining us I
think and we covered a lot of you know a
lotta ground always fun to talk about
schematics we will be back in two weeks
on February 28th I'm looking to pour
that we're interested in topic
suggestions from you we'll have another
surprise guest on as we as there's so
many amazing experts to talk to I'm
really excited about bringing some of
our friends on yeah and we'll get on
this audio uploaded tomorrow for into a
podcast form so you can listen to it and
yeah thanks so much everybody for being
on and all the comments it was really
great and thanks that Jessa for being in
the comments it's really helpful and
having everybody on right your
legislature thanks for having me we're
gonna make great trip here happen have a
fantastic day everybody